PDX.Duke

6 hours ago, AustrianVespaGuy said:

No. What we want out of (any) threaded joint is ultimately a desired CLAMPING force on the joint.  This both holds the joint together and in turn the preload on the threads then prevents it from loosening back up. In general any type of lubrication on threads does two things - due to the reduced friction you get more clamp for a given amount of tightening torque, but more importantly you get a CONSISTENT amount of clamp for a given torque by reducing 'sticktion' (the difference in peak force needed to overcome the static friction to get things moving vs. the lower dynamic friction once it is moving).

So for your wheel studs, is what this means is that with dry threads, lets say you torque the lug nuts to 100 Nm, and this results in something (just guessing) in the range of  70 ~130 MN of clamping force.  But now when you go to loosen it, and you find it takes 120 Nm to break it free again.

But on the other hand if you put some anti-sneeze on there first to lower the friction and tighten to the same 100Nm, you'll end up with a slightly-higher-on-average but more consistent clamping force, something like 100~120 MN, and you'll also find you only need maybe 105Nm of torque to break it back loose again.  Feel free to try it yourself with either an old-skool beam type or modern-skool digital torque wrench!  But ultimately the answer is no, if they're properly torqued down, lubed or not, the won't just come 'undone' unless/until a slightly greater loosening torque is applied.

I REALLY appreciate that explanation! Very clear and helps a great deal in my understanding of something that was not immediately intuitive to me.

Cheers,

Doug.

41 minutes ago, Mark92131 said:

 To reduce rusting of the threads, a light coat of grease or anti-seize should work fine.  

 

Mark92131

Any concern that grease or anti-seize on threads could impair security of torqued lugs?

Thanks!

I was able to, mercifully and without great effort, remove the welded-by-PO wheels studs from my front e21 hubs. I will be cleaning and prepping to install new screw-in studs. I've found a couple offerings online for what I need to fit my 13" Alpina rims (M12 1.5 x 57mm), but at wildly different prices. And since I'l, be buying between 8 and 16 of these, the difference adds up.

Having only fairly recently acquired my 2002, I am not very familiar with either the various vendors yet, or differences between wheel studs,  and hope to solicit advice/feedback from the hive. Here's what I've found:

1. Turner Motorsports (which I understand are owned by ECS Tuning?) have them in a "Black magnesium phosphorous corrosion resistant coating".  

PRICE: $11.99 ea.

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-turner-motorsport-parts/turner-motorsport-12x15-55mm-full-thread-wheel-stud-most-bmws-e30-e36-e46-e90-e92-etc/twh9950x55/

2. Ireland Engineering have them in some not specific silver finish.

PRICE $2.75 ea (theirs even included lugs, which I don't need)

https://www.iemotorsport.com/product/12mm-x-57mm-long-thread-in-wheel-stud/

3. And 2002AD.com seems to be selling the same thing as IE (and even uses the exact same text description), but for slightly cheaper at $2.19ea.

https://www.2002ad.com/storeworks/view_item.cfm?id=2589

So, my QUESTION: I'm assuming that the black magnesium coating matters? Can anyone fill me in on the fundamental difference?

Thanks!

@Son of Marty & @BarneyT,

The bolt spacer where the control arm and subframe meet... I like this idea a lot, but I've go a conundrum. I lift the front end straight in from center and the jack chassis' position on the ground doesn't leave clearance to get the jack stands properly positioned for this.

How duo you go about this? Perhaps your jack stands have a smaller foot print? Or you come in from the sides with the floor jack? Would love some tips.

Thanks

(ps. Yeah, I know. I don't need 6-ton jack stands, but its what I got 🤷🏽)

On 5/25/2024 at 9:10 AM, TobyB said:

I welded some c-shaped clips to the front stands, so that they're straddling the 'not-frame-rails'-

 

that rubber would scare me- it's putting load into the middle of the rails, AND it can move.  as in, bounce.

as in, bounce the car off then stands, potentially.

 

In back, I welded a couple of short sections of pipe onto the tops of the stands, and they just catch the end of the

subframe retention bolts.  Easy to place, and again, captive.  I use squares of plywood underneath as shims- they have just a bit

of give to make sure all 4 keep some weight on them.

 

For jacking, by far the easiest is to weld square tube steel behind the lip of the rocker, so you can jam

your jack under and hoof the whole side up with about 6 pumps.  Just a little behind the b-pillar balances well.

I have a tape mark, just so I know where to catch it.

 

bkuz racekar, of course.

 

heh

t

 

Yeah, I think the frame rails are vulnerable (although many have mentioned this as their chosen jack placement). Mine seem to have deformed mildly (see post I just made with pic).

And when you say "subframe retention bolts", can you help me identify more precisely where you referring to? Are you talking about the rearward bolt of the sub-frame to chassis brace?

Like here?:

On 5/23/2024 at 10:07 AM, MurphinDC said:

I would ditch the rubber pads and turn the jack stand sideways so the frame rail sits inside the "U" shaped piece. That's what I do and it feels/looks more secure. With a sideways push I'm not sure that the rubber pad would be good.  My two cents.

 

Murph

Unfortunately, as wide as my jack stand "perches" are, they aren't quite wide enough for the frame rails to sit nicely in the cradle. And the rubber pads feel like they are tracing the frame rails nicely, but also leave me feeling like the overall stability of my "suspension plan" is compromised a wee bit.

Plus, having removed these jack stands at the frame rails upon which my car has been resting now for a few days, I notice a mild deformation of the bottom rail surface. I know a lot of people have recommended this placement, but I'm not inclined to put that kind of stress on those rails again. 

Here's a pic:

Now... On to investigate the bolt spacer at control arm to sub-frame joint.

On 5/23/2024 at 10:07 AM, MurphinDC said:

I would ditch the rubber pads and turn the jack stand sideways so the frame rail sits inside the "U" shaped piece. That's what I do and it feels/looks more secure. With a sideways push I'm not sure that the rubber pad would be good.  My two cents.

 

Murph

deleted duplicate post

On 5/23/2024 at 10:07 AM, MurphinDC said:

I would ditch the rubber pads and turn the jack stand sideways so the frame rail sits inside the "U" shaped piece. That's what I do and it feels/looks more secure. With a sideways push I'm not sure that the rubber pad would be good.  My two cents.

 

Murph

Unfortunately, as wide as my jack stand "perches" are, they aren't quite wide enough for the frame rails to sit nicely in the cradle. And the rubber pads feel like they are supporting the frame rails nicely, but also leave me feeling like the overall stability of my "suspension plan" is compromised a wee bit.

54 minutes ago, Stevenc22 said:

Be careful jacking on the front sub frame. When lowering the car, i have had the jack slide out from under the subframe since its metal on metal and can move. Have a rubber pad between the jack and the front subframe creates enough friction that the jack doesn't slip when lowering the car.

 

Your lifting and jack stand points are all good. The front subframes can take the weight but they do tend to get a few minor dents over the years especially if you don't use pads.

 

 

My jack came with a pretty thin rubber pad but I was able to source a much better one about an inch thick. Much happier with that. 

1 hour ago, PhilC said:

😂 I can’t even get the jack under my car at the front let alone with a beam. I have to drive onto some shallow ramps and then jack up.

Yeah, a couple 2x6s is what I used in front. And a lo-profile jack. Just have to remember to have those boards in place when I lower. 😳

2 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

The only thing I'd do different is I like to set the v on top of the front jack stands on the bolt spacer where the front arms go through the subframe, no way for it to slip there, I also stack the wheels under the car on the end I'm working on just in case.

What do you think of those rubber pads? You like those or wood?

2 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

The only thing I'd do different is I like to set the v on top of the front jack stands on the bolt spacer where the front arms go through the subframe, no way for it to slip there, I also stack the wheels under the car on the end I'm working on just in case.

I'll go have a look at the bolt spacer where the front arms go through the subframe tomorrow. And 👍🏼 on the wheels stacked under car!

I know (and I'm sorry), this horse has been beaten dead over the years, but...

I've done a pretty broad searching of the archives and there are so many opinions about (some, contradictory) and mentions of proper jack stand placement that I thought I'd just run this by y'all. 

I'd like to get the rear up too (I'm in the middle of replacing wheels studs all around) and it may be parked this way for a while and just want to be sure I've got the smartest, safest and most secure method employed.

FRONT END: I've got my front end up, supported at both frame rails by 2 6-ton jack stands (overkill, I know), and my floor jack "parked" under front sub-frame center. Like this:

Questions:

1. I've got rubber jack stand pads to protect the rails, but I can see some mild deformation of the rubber. Would I be better off in the long run with, as some have suggested, 2x4 blocks or 4x4 sections between the jack stands and frame rails?

2. Are the frame rails at all vulnerable to this weight-bearing or should I be using the front sub-frame if that placement doesn't interfere with the work?

REAR END: When I get to the rear, I plan on lifting with floor jack by the center of rear sub-frame, just in front of diff (its been suggested that the diff is NOT the place to lift from). And I would place the 2 jack-stands on the outboard ends of the sub -frame, just inboard of the sub-frame-to-chassis brace. Like this:

Questions:

3. In order to place floor jack here t left, Id be coming in from the side. Am I right?

4. Am I correct on the floor jack placement?

Thanks everyone🙏🏼❗️

55 minutes ago, Son of Marty said:

I've always liked the studs over the bolts it's much easier to mount the wheel with them although Mikes cut off temporary bolt would make mounting the wheel about the same, When I install the studs I put them in the freezer the night before and then use red loc-tite on the hub end. Your hubs will not take press in studs with out some machine work when they are presses in they have teeth that cut into the hub to hold them no loc-tite needed.

Freezing them I presume reduces them, ever-so-slightly, in diameter, making them easier to install?

Does the low temp effect the loctite at all?

PS. I love how every time I've typed the word "loctite", autocorrect changes it to lactate. lol

So, I pulled the caliper and rotor off and am now able to see exactly what I was expecting to see (what @AceAndrew euphemistically referred to as a "non-recommended "improvisation"): The remaining 3 studs having also been tack welded to the front face of the hub.

I can't imagine not replacing these wheel studs (and almost certainly the drivers side too once I get over there).

QUESTIONS:

1. Am I correct that I could elect to replace with either screw-in (like whats on there now) or press-in studs? If so, is there an advantage of one over the other?

2. How might I go about removing these tack welded studs? Honestly, to my neophyte eyes, they don't look like they're doing a whole hell of a lot. I assume I'll be removing the hub and I'd like to think I can get these out without damaging the hub itself. I've bought a map-pro torch which I understand can be helpful in loosening up Loctite bonds, but what will I need for these obnoxious snotty welds? Would the "double-nut" method in reverse work here? The one stud seemed to come out without even trying, which might indicate that these other welds are not going to put up much of a fight. Was the lug on the stud that came out overtightened? I have no idea - that wheels' been off only once since I bought the car, for rotation,  and that was by someone else - a mechanic who I'm inclined to trust.

3. If I go press-in, is Loctite sufficient to eliminate the risk of the stud coming out again in the future (providing lugs are not installed having exceeded proper torque specs)?

4. The current studs are approx 58mm (I'll get a proper caliper reading once my just purchased, 1st ever, caliper arrives in the mail tomorrow). Although the old lugs (I've got a fresh set of chrome Alpina lugs waiting to install) seemed to fit these studs and wheel (authentic Alpina 13") just fine, what is the best way to determine the proper stud length"

Thank you all!  I cannot begin to express my appreciation for the advice, replies and information I've been receiving here. The reassurance of having this knowledge base available has given me the courage to  keep my sleeves firmly rolled-up.

@Son of Marty 

"Hardware is commonly referred to by the size of the bolt it's self, not the nut or bolt head size:"

That makes perfect sense!

Look at that, I learned something useful today.

Thanks!!!

3 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

There's no reason to break and of the brake pipes loose just remove the 6mm bolt that holds the l bracket to the strut remove the caliper and I hang it from the brake pipes where they come through the inter fender with a wire tie, I used to use metal close hanger wire but those kind of hangers have pretty much gone MIA.

OK, cool! I think I see what you're talking about. The bolt that hold that L-bracket on, however, in my setup is 13mm. Is this (photo below) what you're referring to?

@AceAndrew 

Thanks for your late night reply! SUCH great and useful info!

I've read mentions of the Volvo BBK, good to know that's my setup. Also useful to know that the E21 hub shares the 02 bearings.

I very much appreciate you noticing and pointing out the lack of safety wire on the steering arm bolts. Just added this to ever-growing my ToDo list ✅!

2 hours ago, NeueKlasseGuy said:

I would nominate Racecraft in Woodinville, WA. They take care of all my race cars, plus they built my S14 2002 hot rod, and restored my TiSA. Can't go wrong with Jim and his crew!

 

 

Racecraft has crossed my radar before. Your S14 02 is gorgeous (also, just found this): 

Jim Froula (@racecraftnw) • Instagram reel

WWW.INSTAGRAM.COM

---

146 likes, 2 comments - racecraftnw on July 3, 2023

And the TiSA... 😳👍🏼

Thanks for this referral!

-Doug

3 minutes ago, PhilC said:

Just disconnect the hard lines where they join the flexi lines. Leave them connected to the caliper.

👍🏼

On 5/17/2024 at 1:18 PM, PhilC said:

As Ace states that is someone’s go at creating a stud conversion. 02s use wheel studs with a nut. The e21 uses wheel bolts. To be safe you should be using wheel bolts or, if you really want to buy a set of proper stud converters ( this does make putting a wheel on much easier since they are not hubcentric). 
I have just switched to e21 hubs and Volvo calipers and am using the bolts. By the way the Volvo calipers and vented discs are soooooooo much better than the standard 02 brakes so you are on a winner there.

If it were me I would remove all the (likely) dodgy studs and use bolts.

Studs sure are more appealing to me, both for ease of wheel removal & install as well as because I just bought a full set of pretty and shiny chrome Alpina lug nuts from Coupe King for my Alpina wheels.

You'd recommend bolts over studs? How come?

2 minutes ago, PhilC said:

In hindsight, the missing bolt is not missing, if I’m correct you can mount the calipers either side.

Oh, wow!!! No kidding? That's slick!!!

1 minute ago, PhilC said:

My advice to you would be, due to the missing bolt and dodgy studs and not knowing what else is not correct would be to strip the whole lot down and check it all. It doesn’t take long and then you will not risk bending the hard lines. Making new hard lines is more faff than taking it all apart and then bleeding the brakes after putting it back together. That way you will know everything is good to go.

Thanks Phil,

Yeah, my inclination is to do whats necessary on all 4 corners to get bullet-proof (ie, know for certain that it's all as it should be. When you say "strip the whole lot down", do you mean removing all the brake lines as well with the intention of redoing these too?

On 5/16/2024 at 2:43 PM, Son of Marty said:

2002's don't use threaded in studs leads me also to believe you're running 320i hubs as Andrew said easy to check out. When I remove the calipers I leave all the lines and hoses tight and remove the 2 bolts and hang it off the solid brake lines on the car with a wire tie, don't let it hang on the hoses. The ground section on your calipers just might have been ground down on purpose to fit the wheels which is common on the Volvo big brake convention which also uses the 320i hubs. 

Hope this helps.

Marty

Marty,

See my post right above this and there are better pics of the brakes for y'all to help me identify them (E21, I suspect?).

What you say about the ground sections of the calipers being there to accommodate the wheels makes sense. FWIW, I'm running original Alpina 20-spoke 13" x  5.5" wheels at all corners.

If I leave all hard lines and hoses tight, will I still be able to move the caliper enough out of the way to have access and get the work done? Also (yeah, I know very little about brake lines as well), if I were to start loosening these line connections I imagine I'd have some brake fluid running/leaking out?

Thanks!

@AceAndrew

On 5/16/2024 at 2:24 PM, AceAndrew said:

1) The welded stud is an non-recommended "improvisation".  It was possibly done to emulate the "bubble" stop found on some wheel studs.  Glad you found this before it sheared.

 Your brakes appear to be larger than original (vented disks).  ASSUMING that you have larger brakes that used the hub from an E21 (you can identify this quickly by seeing if the brake rotor is mounted on top of the hub versus behind the hub), which utilized thread-in wheel studs (12x1.5).  

 

Note that there are some variations to brakes/struts that we'd need to see a picture from the front to fully break down what you have.

2) Hardlines there are normal.  I like to loosen the upper nuts simply because there's more accessibility. 

3) If its a thread in stud, just clean/chase the threads in the hub and thread in a new stud.  Some new studs will feature an allen-key provision on the end to use when installing.  If no provision is there, use the "double nut" method to tighten in a new stud.  A little thread locker is a nice touch.

Ace,

Correct, the brakes are not original. Here are some pics of both the brakes and struts which I hope are clear enough that you might help me determine their provenance:

This next photo is curious to me. The backside of the assembly shows 2 holes where you'd expect to see bolts, but only one of the bolt holes (the upper) is being used - both holes are threaded. The driver side brake assembly id identical. Any idea what's going on here?

Tomorrow I'll have a go at removing the caliper. Hopefully the hard lines will allow me to get them enough out of the way to get in there and see whats going on with the other studs.

Thanks!!! 

Doug