GasProcessor

On 4/5/2024 at 6:39 PM, Kibs said:

Hey everyone. Been lurking and devouring the tech articles (seriously so happy those are there, I’ve fixed so much in the last few months lol) so I figure it’s finally time to say hi. I’m up in the Seattle area, but until the bimmer is up to snuff you can see me in 1 of the quarter million Subaru outbacks up here.

 

picked up my 2nd 2002, a 74 blue 4 speed, a few months back. I believe it was originally a gorgeous Malaga, but hey I’m probably owner number 17 by now. It needs some love, and has some rust holes in the rear floor boards, under the rear seat, the rear seats themselves (found out how bad when I pulled them for an Esty rear seat delete and they uh… came out in several more pieces than usual) rockers and rear inner wheel wells.

 

But besides that it’s sound! I’ve also had (have) a nice golf yellow that’s in pieces back in Missouri.

 

The blue one is lowered on bilsteins and has a Weber 32/36 carb. Aside from that it looks like it’s pretty original and complete. I’ve done a full tune up and fluid change, but that’s it so far. It’ll soon be getting new corbeau seats, and will be getting some serious body tlc after that.

 

I’ll still probably mostly lurk but if anyone in the Seattle area can recommend a good welder or body shop let me know! Hopefully I’ll see some of yall around when I’m up and running. Bonus pic of my cat Killdozer because the internet loves cats.

 

-kibs

Congrats! I’m a young man myself, dealing with a 101k mile ‘89 325iX auto at age 28 (owned for a year and since age 27 - brought with 78k miles on the clock). I am debating between a 2002, E21, and a Mercedes Benz W110 as my next classic daily driver

You will have to dump some good money into this vehicle if you expect someone to do the welding for you. Otherwise, I would liquidate it and wait for a clean, unmolested example to show up on an auction website or on this forum.

Good luck with your 02 ventures friend!

The Dollar Store is dead… Long live the Dollar Store!

With all this inflation, we as well start pricing things in Bitcoins now… no wait, I mean Satoshis as a single Bitcoin is now too expensive for the regular Joe. Perhaps we can also price things in Dogecoins as people sure love their doggies and would put them on a “currency”. 

20 hours ago, Tdh said:

160,000 smackaroonies. I just dont understand….

Me neither. For 160k Washingtons, you could have a shop do a Concours restoration on an 02 while throwing an electric motor in there, and drive off with something way cooler than that ugly gray brick

My solution to the “boring future” is to combine the best of the “fun” past and the “boring” future; that is - take a 2002, throw an electric motor in it, throw in a battery that gives about 100 miles of range, and then enjoy the amazing parts of owning a 50 year old BMW without much of the headaches of owning a 50 year old BMW. The range isn’t much, but most of these cars don’t get driven that far from home base anyways. 

Many on here will scoff at the thought of someone doing that, but let’s get real here; the 2002, despite being a sports sedan in its youthful (younger than 20) years, now suffers from 50+ year old car problems; NLA parts which are hard to find, lots of routine maintenance required on just the engine, less mechanics out there who can competently work on these engines, many examples in decrepit condition for sale, rust issues (sometimes in structural areas!), expensive rebuild/restoration costs, etc. I think a lot of project-grade 2002s can be (more) affordably resurrected to be something nice and roadworthy with an EV conversion in… say 10-20 years. Cars of this age are quite pretty (the body/interior styling and the chrome trim) and look a hell of a lot better driving on the road than a Cybertruck

“What is the right amount of horsepower?” - depends on the use case for the car. Can’t really apply a one-number-fits all approach here. Gonna give my opinion on numbers (assume they’re for an ‘02/E21/E30 sized car)

regular street use in a suburban area and interstate driving - 100-150 hp is enough for most people; torque at 4000 RPM or below is way more important

driving around in NYC (assuming you live in the city and you’re rich enough to own a car there) - 50 hp is enough. You don’t need a lot of hp to sit in city traffic and bumble around at 10-30 MPH. Low-end torque below 2500 RPM is pretty much everything here. Might as well get an electric car

twisty backroad driving - 250-300 hp will probably be the most enjoyable for most people. A few might want 400+ hp

racetrack - the sky is the limit! To infinity and beyond!

“Driving around Los Angeles in the middle of the summer without AC is a little crazy” - I imagine it isn’t too bad given the lack of humidity over there. Here in NJ we have LA temps along with 40-80% humidity throughout July and August. I drove a Schwarz exterior/tan interior 325e with broken AC here during summer of 2021/2022… I was constantly drenched in sweat even with both windows all the way down.

That vert he traded in for also has a black interior, which will get hot and uncomfortable when driven topless in the sun.

My opinion with these cars is to keep them stock (at least until EV conversions become economical). The stock wheels, suspension, and cam might not be as fun as aftermarket, but the older I get the more I value comfort over performance. I used to modify and beat the crap out of my BMWs when I was a kid (and I quickly learned how fast things break when you do that), but as grown man these days I trust the way the BMW engineers set up the car’s engine, wheels, tires, and suspension from the factory. There are mods that can improve the car (restomods), but in my opinion they aren’t in the departments you listed.

That said, I’m a regular driver and I use cars strictly as street vehicles, and I’m the type that drives an automatic transmission (so the classic BMWs I pick are really nice and had gentle owners). I also want to say that I mainly like classic BMWs from the 70s and 80s for their styling (I like boxy bodies and chrome trim and round headlights), small size (you should see my 1989 325iX compared to my little sister’s 2017 320i), and big greenhouses.

My 2 cents on this question

Clean up the interior bits as much as possible and you’ll get paid handsomely for them. Make the chrome as shiny as possible, make sure the letters look new. Clean the dust off the faceplate and make sure that vinyl-esque texture is as well-preserved as possible. Make that chrome have a sheen. Make it look as new as possible. Put it up for sale on Ebay for $1000 and there’s a good chance a desperate enough buyer (who’s rich and likes 02’s - he has great taste in cars I must say) will pay you that much for them. If a few months go by and no one bites, lower the price by increments of $100, wait a few more months until someone bites, then repeat until it’s sold.

I’ve cleaned up three used NLA center caps for 15” E30 basketweave wheels to the point, threw them on Ebay one at a time and someone paid me $150 a pop for each.

Given that these cars are getting closer to 60 years old, do you guys think we’ll see 02 shell reproductions or replica shells within the next 10-15 years? Was thinking it would be a great way to build a custom 02 from the ground up without hacking up a survivor or starting off with a shell that’s had 50 years of wear and tear on it

I’ve seen companies sell replica shells for 1960s Mustangs. Granted the Mustang has been embedded in American car culture for far longer than classic BMWs or even classic Mercedes for that matter. What are your folks thoughts on this?

The last time a poll like this was done was 2007. A good while has passed from now. Wanted to do a new one to see how the answers have changed since then.

I’m a “looks stock (or OEM plus) but isn’t” guy. If it’s an American-spec 02, the main looks-related mods I’d do is throw on Euro bumpers (on cars with diving boards) and Euro turn signals. I would also undo some of the government-mandated requirements that I view as pointless (like rear license plate lights and side markers - less stuff to break as the car ages)

Under the hood, I’d throw an electric motor with some batteries in the trunk 😁 Needs so little maintenance compared to a stock powertrain and max torque from 0 RPM is great for daily cruising (also much better for city driving vs a gas engine).
 

With cars of this vintage, I like them mainly for their styling and the massive green house vs any performance factors or the tech (which is now ancient from a “how it works” standpoint)

Before seeing this post, I used to think engine-driven fans would only collide into shrouds (assuming the radiator has a shroud). Wow that fan is pretty close to the radiator

53 minutes ago, autokunst said:

In my experience, nothing is ever more affordable in the future (save for a catastrophic economic event which no one wants).  Possible exceptions were home computers and microwave ovens. 😀

Yep, that’s thanks to inflation (your government printing out money to finance their debts). Eventually it will hit microwave ovens and computers; in fact it’s already manifested for computers - an RTX 4080 is way more expensive MSRP-wise than a 3080, which is more expensive MSRP-wise  than a 2080. Eventually today’s $1000 computer will be 2043’s $10,000 computer and 2083’s $100,000 quantum computer

Now, if 2002 prices remain at $40k for a nice example in 2043 (due to stagnating demand), then I might be able to afford a warehouse full of them.

Thank you all for the honest, unfiltered input.
 

@bavariaboy’s 02 is nice and we did talk about it over the phone, but like you all said, I’m probably not ready for ownership of an 02, even one as nice as his. I wish him good luck on his sale.

I have also thought about an EV converted 02 a few years down the road (that would eliminate any ownership headaches regarding an engine/transmission), but right now that’s a niche swap and quite expensive ($40k-60k parts + labor if you want it done properly). Maybe 10 years from now it’ll be a more affordable proposition.

5 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

With little to no parts support.

Is the parts support really that bad? I did find this ZF 3HP12 rebuild kit on Ebay. Unless I am unaware of NLA parts of the transmission that are not in that kit. I think the big challenge is finding somebody who can competently rebuild these ancient ZF units.

5 hours ago, Hans said:

There is also the matter of owning a 45 yr old automatic transmission.

This is a good point. Although, I have owned a BMW with a 35 year old automatic transmission and it functioned properly in all gears for the 10k miles I drove it (including driving 40 miles to/from work two years ago).

6 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

The one thing I took from you post is that you were unhappy with the noise level in a 1998 318i, the 2002 is a much louder car at speed In town you should be OKish. 

Okay, this is in-line with what I was thinking. It might be exciting once in a while to experience the cacophony of a 4000 RPM engine on the highway, but hearing that everyday would wear on me quite a bit. 

17 minutes ago, HBChris said:

The 2002 uses the ZF 3HP12, the e3 and e9 used the ZF 3HP22 which is longer.  The auto trans is 1:1 in third and so is a four speed so no difference there.  When I had a 75 2002 automatic I installed Tii pistons during a motor rebuild and the car was really transformed.  You can always shift manually to get the rpm up before shifting as well.  The 3HP22 is in my 79 e12 and and I kind of like it, I just hold the pedal all the way down to perk it up.

Thank you for your input, HBChris. My mistake on the transmission model; I accidentally typed "22" instead of "12" in my original post. I have rectified that mistake.

What effect does installing tii pistons have on the car? Where is the torque band improved? The low-end? Mid-range? Top-end? A mix of low-end and mid-range? A mix of mid-range and top-end?

With my E30, I have avoided manual shifting with the auto because... well... I expect it to shift automatically 😁. The E12 is a larger, heavier car so I generally avoid those; I prefer compact cars as they are easier to park in tight spaces.

My driving style with all of the automatics (be them Toyotas or BMWs) I have owned is that I normally give the car 1/2 to 2/3 throttle, and rev the engine up to 2000-2500 RPM. The engine reaches up to 4000 RPM when a situation arises where I need quick acceleration (e.g. other drivers will not let me merge onto the main freeway from on-ramp). The only exception to that is when I beat on my E46 (revving the engine up to redline) and the engine developed a lifter tick (that one experience taught me to stop beating on BMWs).

Hi all,

New member here, so please bear with me (I don't see a "new members" section on this forum, so I'll introduce myself here). I am currently an E30 enthusiast and drive a 82k mile 1989 325iX with a 4-speed automatic transmission. The BMW 2002 has piqued my interest as a car I would like to own, drive, and experience as a daily driver at some point in the future (when I am more monied, more experienced with older BMWs, and have the guts to deal with something much older than an E30). I am a very gentle driver and am not looking to hotrod the car or beat on it - I can appreciate the car with mostly stock internals (aside from minor modifications that improve reliability/drivability).

From the research I have done, the automatic version of these cars lack a 4th overdrive gear and a lockup torque converter. I have never driven a car with anything less than a 4-speed automatic transmission and a lockup torque converter and for a long time accepted this as the minimum for what constitutes as "drivable". I am looking for some input and opinions from members on here that have experienced owning and driving an automatic 2002s to explain to me their ownership experience the ZF 3HP12 transmission. How well does the car go up hills? How noisy is the engine it on the interstate at speeds of 70-80 MPH? At those speeds, I believe we are somewhere in the ballpark of 3600-4300 RPM based on looking at the graphs on automobilecatalog.com? How sluggish is the acceleration in top gear on the highway? Is this transmission best used for low-speed suburban and city driving?

My closest personal experience to answering the above questions was my ownership experience with the 1998 318i 4-speed auto, which buzzed on the highway at 4000 RPM at 80 MPH and dropped a gear or two going up a steep hill. That said, I would like some opinions from the experienced members on this forum to help guide my decision on getting a 3-speed auto 2002 at a later point in time.

Note that I am not good at driving manual nor do I enjoy it so I don't plan on owning a manual car. My driving environment is 9.9 times out of 10 central NJ and the NYC area; we have lots of traffic and stop lights here.

List of cars I have owned/driven, to add context (if it provides any):

2004 Toyota Camry LE 4-speed auto (parents car, wrapped it around a telephone pole)

2005 Toyota Camry XLE 5-speed auto (parents car, still have it, use it as a back up today in case my E30 decides to break down)

1998 BMW 318i 4-speed auto (college beater, my introduction to BMWs, got lots of tickets in it because I was a hormone-ridden dummy)

2005 BMW 325i 5-speed auto (nice college car that turned into a beater, handed down to my little sister, Tesla hit her and it's now out of the picture)

1986 BMW 325e 4-speed auto (first E30, beater condition car, I messed up a valve adjustment on it and sold it because it needed $6k in cylinder head work)

1989 BMW 325iX 4-speed auto (second E30, BAT condition car that I just got, I baby it and pamper it and use it as a summer car - mainly take it to steakhouses in NYC)