Summit321 123

Does anyone know a part number for the bolt so I can try my local dealership.

Hi all,

I am restoring my seat hinges and am looking for a few little widgets. I couldn't find a seller for the chrome bolts with the 17 mm flats and I needed to drill one of mine to get it out. Also one of the little springs inside the hinges was broken. If anyone has these lying around please send me a message.

On another note I found a plate of some kind that a previous owner had bought in a box of parts and was curious where it goes. Does anyone recognize it. Maybe transmission...

5 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

Don't open up the cooling holes they are there to meter the water to the head. And yes on rtv in the two small holes at the head/timing cover joint per the blue book.

Will do, thanks

Thanks for the help everyone!

I ordered a new set of bearings and all spins good. I got my timing cover on and my new head gasket looks kinda funny. I don't remember the screw holes being there near the fwd lwr timing cover. I know people say to put sealant there but does it look right to you guys? Also should all the cooling jackets holes be opened up? 

22 minutes ago, tech71 said:

You used some sort of assembly grease ? What was it exactly and how much did you apply?

Excessive amounts of assembly paste/grease can lock things up tight.

I'm just using tacky assy fluid thinned out with some oil. I flipped two of the end caps and it spun much better. Is there any way to make sure the rods are facing the right way?

On 9/24/2023 at 6:59 PM, jgerock said:

Look at the back of both rod and main bearings before installing them. Don’t trust the packaging they come in.

Packaging was a bit weird and not really labeled but they looked good.

19 hours ago, TobyB said:

You did keep the caps with their respective rods, right?  

 

t

made that mistake once.

Almost positive...

On 9/24/2023 at 6:59 PM, Son of Marty said:

Are the rod and cap numbers on the same side? With the rod pin oil hole facing the front of the engine and the arrow on the piston facing forward.

I will double check the caps. There was no direction indicator on the pistons they are from ross, but they I think I have them the right way from the picture. Can I still see the rod pin oil hole?

Hi all,

I am rebuilding my engine and ran into some trouble with torquing down my connecting rods (40 ftlbs). I had my crank shaft polished and it is original size. I am using new stock conn rod bearings. Crank becomes very difficult to rotate with one rod torqued and it is impossible with 2. I am using two flywheel bolts and a long screwdriver to rotate it. I checked bearing clearance and it is about .0025 which I think is normal. After torque and one rotation the bearing on the rod cap side had coating loss and scoring, mostly on one side. The other had a bit also. Side clearance is .005-.007. What am I doing wrong? Rods backwards? I'm using 50/50 assy fluid/oil. Not sure if I uploaded the pic properly.

Thanks,

Summit

Update on the project.

I inspected the rockers and found that there was material missing from some and the rest were cracked on the surface that rides on the cam. I replaced them all and built up the head with new stem seals the other day. Valves and guides were good so thats all I replaced there.

When dissassembling the timing cover I found my water pump was in pretty bad shape. I snapped a few bolt heads, couldn't even pry the pump off because they were corroded inside the bolt holes so bad. Eventually I got the pump off and found the impeller badly corroded. I suspect significant loss in displacement which may be a contributer to the overheating I had. Some bolts broke off flush so I left the timing cover at the machinist to remove. No need to make a mess it 😆 Sometimes having a tii really is a curse. Man that is an expensive pump

Yesterday I finally heard from my machinist that .030 was all he needed to take off the cyl. to clean it up. I have been in touch with tech support at Ireland Engineering and they told me they could have them made for me at that size. The set I am interested is their custom forged M10 set.

Can someone confirm that 3.534 is the correct bore size for me. I've double checked the numbers but its a big spend non returnable.

He miked the crank and said it came out well all true and straight so no problem there.

On 11/15/2022 at 10:21 PM, Son of Marty said:

Looks like the engine builder missed the ring gap setting.

Thats what my engine builder said. They must've beat that ring on because it isn't going anywhere. That piston is scrap. I'm dropping my engine off for him to assess if the scoring and pitting that piston caused is servicable or it needs to be bored. I don't like what I see but I don't have enough experience to make that judgment call. 

I was getting ready for a pain job anyway, looks like its gonna be engine out 😀

On 11/9/2022 at 5:42 PM, TobyB said:

If you didn't notice binding when the cam came out, you're probably OK.

They have to be noticeably stiff to cause problems, and you'd have remembered that.

 

Total cut of 0.022" isn't too bad- that puts you just a little over the 'limit' of 0.50mm, and that's not

a hard limit.  Add 0.30mm back with the 1.80mm head gasket, and you'll be sportingly fine.

 

The danger with the rings is that you'll measure the ring lands, find that they're a bit too worn,

then you'll be into pistons, and at that point a block bore, and hoo boy!  fresh engine time!

I freely admit that when I have a 'clean it up and run it' engine, I refuse to measure the ring lands

because I just don't want to know.  Then, when it breaks a piston crown, munches a ring, and trashes

the head, I can just shake my head and say 'jeeze, I guess I know how THAT mess could have been avoided.'

Whereas, if you JUST do the top end, the worn rings will burn TONS of oil before anything goes bad,

and you'll probably build something to replace it before it grenades.

 

see how this goes???

 

heh

 

t

 

Heres the rub, no pun intended. 

I continued with dissasembly into the bottom end for a few reasons. One of the primary reasons being peace of mind. I respect that you are able to say oh well I could've avoided that but peace of mind was important to me. I'd rather put in the time now that have bigger issues later and undo all of my work. 

Next was the advice I recieved from the technician at the machine shop. He was not convinced that my only problem was in the top end. I trust his expertise, I have gone to him before and had good work, professional, wasn't getting any more cash out of me for it. He warned that if even one ring was sticking then I would never get good compression. I had a damn good opportunity to make sure it was all good down there and he told me to go for it.

What I was able to see from above. Three glossy polished cylinder walls and one with some scoring. I felt like it was important enough to hone those barrels and that it would make it worth while to have that increaced assurance for long term engine health. Also for me was the warped head. Clearly a sign of overheating with potential damage to rings.

Considering my experience I would not advise everyone removing their head for whatever reason to remove their pistons just because they can. I would recomend that they think long and hard if it would make sence for them considering their particular situation. Dissasembly and trouble shooting go hand and hand and you may come to regret it for coping out and not finding the root problem. In my line of work I see people avoiding that critical step because they dont want to deal with what they know they will find. 

Two rings welded in. Cyl 1 C2 and oil control. I got the oil ring off by snapping it piece by piece. The ends are butted up on C2 on that piston and I haven't managed to remove it yet. 69015561926__E0B8F113-5AF5-4F4D-BFB1-E26C96504E32.HEIC69015409828__EF25203F-EBFB-4ED4-8F9C-33EAC5BA5823.HEIC

2 hours ago, Hans said:

is the front cover getting cut too? current thinking is to reuse head bolts. 

Per Toby, is block still in car? mileage on motor? You're getting into scope creep territory.

Mileage is 65k. Block is still in I would've taken it out by now but I just bolted up the transmission for some work back there. I am trying not to go off the rails but rings are relativly inexpensive and I dont know when I'll have it broken down to this point again.  

Just now, Hans said:

And the front cover? It needs to be done with the head!

Yup I left it with the head and it't hardware.

5 hours ago, NickVyse said:

I've had a head warped enough to make the camshaft bind - did it slide out easily? No point spending money and finding out it's toast when you come to build it back up again.

I hadn't thought of that. I wasn't looking for binding or anything when I removed the cam but it seemed to slide out fine. Would that in turn cause out of round of the camshaft? Is it worth putting a dial indicator on it. 

1 hour ago, Mark92131 said:

 

You would think he would test it for cracks before he began skimming the head.  You should ask him before he skims it another 7 thousands.

 

Mark92131

He said it needed to be flat before he could test it. I was already thinking it was a good idea to deck it so I let him go ahead. I am interested in the table of limits he was looking at because according to the image above his action is beyond limits. 

Summit

23 hours ago, tech71 said:

 

I dont, you would be surprised how much oil will get past the studs and where it will migrate.

Do the top overhaul for sure and install top exhaust manifold studs into clean, clean, clean head with red loctite or hi temp silicone. Not too much.

Will do. I dissasembled the head yesterday and dropped it off at a machine shop. He got back to me today and said it had already been ground and 15 thou was removed. He noticed it was still warped and that he would need to remove another 7. According to spec he said that would leave it just within limits. Does anyone see a reason not to go so thin?

I dont think he pressure tested it yet.

Valve guides were good but stem seals are bad. Based on his observations he thought the most likely source for leaking was the stem seals and warping.

Parts:

Do I need new head bolts? Is there a thicker head gasket or P/N anyone recomends for my situation? Anything that is seriously recomended that I replace in the valve train (Springs, rockers, ect.) I am pushing the pistons out for new rings while the head is off and honing cylinders any recomendations for specific P/N on rings? Any thing else in bottom end (connecting rod bearings, or wrist pin)

Thank you all for your responses.

3 hours ago, 2002iii said:

Sounds like it came out the exhaust ports.

Yes right out the exhaust ports. Heavy stream at first then seemed to clear up. I should've clarified. I had a puddle on my creeper which happened to be right under after just a few seconds😅

3 hours ago, NickVyse said:

If you pulled the upper the studs for the exhaust maifold then they're drilled through to the inside of the head and will have leaked oil, leading you to beleive it was actually coming from the ports.

IMG_1178.HEIC

Ah very interesting I hadn't realised that before. You can see a seam of oil coming out of this stud I pulled. I dont think this is what I observed however. I pulled the manifold off origionally to investigate oil leaking past the gaskets, and running down the side of the engine. Judging by the sheer amount of oil and the fact that it was an issue before the studs came out I doubt this was the root cause.

17 minutes ago, TobyB said:

What you don't say:

 

Are there any cracks in the E12 chambers?

They will be obvious to a careful visual inspection.

 

Oil almost NEVER leaks due to a crack- 99 44/100 % of all cracks let combustion gasses

out of the chamber, or water into somewhere it shouldn't be.

Oil is often valve stem seals, as the valve guides on an M10 take a lot of side loading,

and thus, wear pretty quickly.  M10s also tend to not do much mileage compared

to age, so the stem seals get hard, and then let lots of oil by them and into 

the ports.

 

So yes- get your head examined!  Both for cracks and for warping.

 

And then fix your fuel system, and change your oil more often.

Coking with modern oils is indicative of too long a change interval (on an M10)

and reeking of fuel is an overfuelling situation.

(which will then wreak havoc on the oil's lubrication properties)

 

Yes, the 121 head won't fit over tii pistons.   Unless they're 121 tii pistons, which are

different to E12 tii pistons.

 

t

has a lotta cracked heads in the attic 

 

I changed the oil when I got it but it hasn't been driven or registered in 25+ years. I got it from a friend who had it garaged for 20 years and I have been restoring it for the last 4. It has about 60k on it which is when I saw that the seals tend to go out. As for fuel I rebuilt the fuel injection pump, electric pump, and put a new belt. I really have been trying with the fuel and think its alright now. I've only been around the block with it so I couldn't really tell you about performance issues but my spark plugs and contacts were wide open so it could've been weak spark and incomplete combustion.

20 minutes ago, 2002iii said:

First step is taking your e12 head to a machine shop for cleaning and assessment.

I'll find someone tomorrow and see when they can take a look thank you.

'73 tii

I think my head is cracked. I had my exhaust manifold off to investigate and oil ran out of cyl. 2,3,4 when I first cranked it, smoked, and cleared up. This leads me to suspect oil leaked down since the last time I ran it, was forced out when I cranked and then burnt out. My vave train is coked pretty heavily and smelt strongly like combustion gasses when I took the cover off. I continued to remove the head. Head bolts were quite sludgy and wreaked of burnt oil. I inspected the head gasket and combustion chamber, and besides light scoring on on cyl. 1 (the only one not losing oil), no defects noted. No coolant or oil contamination. No compression test was performed before dissasembly.

I parted out a '72 2002 and have its engine components. It never ran nor did I attempt to get it going so it's mechanical condition was entirely unknown. I tore into it to compare it's condition and it was very clean up top, reinforcing my suspicion of combustion gasses getting up and oil getting down. With just a rough visual inspection, it seems alright.

Assuming my bottom end is sound, it seems to me that I have 2 options:

1. Top overhaul. Have head tested for cracks/ flattness. Replace valve stem seals/ valve guids. 

2. Swap for spare. I read that the 121 head was superseeded by the E12 so can I go backwards? Not my no. 1 priority but how much of an effect would this have on my car.

I have lots of pictures but not sure what to include.

I was ready to start firing the parts cannon but I'm trying to think through the puzzle first. Any of your thoughts are welcome.

Cheers,

Summit

Man the stories that car would tell. If you do decide to part it out I would be interested in the rear seat. Might be a stretch but let me know, thanks.

Summit

Mine are 4.5 I can send you a picture when I get home you will probably want to have them refinished but the original caps fit fine on them.

Summit

5 hours ago, '76mintgrün'02 said:

 

might this be the better of the two ?

My spare came out of a car with 150,000 miles. The outside is pretty gross but the clutch disk itself was in pretty good shape and looked to have been replaced recently. The only indication I have for the internals of it is that the input shaft has significantly more play. I never drove with it or even had the shift linkage hooked up. I suspect that it is very unlikely to be in any better shape.