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You are right but this customer did not want to pay for treating undercarriage of the car. It is a 40 year old car but spent its entire life in San Antonio and Austin TX. Thus never exposed to salt either on roads or salt from ocean air exposure. We knew a solid car and had nothing to hide and definately did not want to cover up undercarriage of car

However, in redoing many these cars I can share with you and this forum an insight on the patterns of wear on 2002's

1. sunroof cars get some unique rust spots near drain holes from sunroofs . This car had a minor spot in a completely non structural area that was less then the size of a nickle. Find a 40 year old car that does not have some minor rust on floor pans unless pans have been repalaced. to have one minor spot is spectacular in the real of 40 year old cars that have been used - period

2. sunroof cars get water in the car from time to time and get some minor rust ... near as I can tell and remember there was not internal rust on inside of floorpans. Internal pans were like new Malaga red with carpet out

3. What is really common is the driver side framerail sits right under the brake fluid reservoir. Since the reservoir is a gravity feed and if it even leaks a tiny bit over 40 years you tend to get a small isolated rust spot on driver side frame rail as the brake fluid removes paint and what little original rust prevention BMW put on these cars. It is no big deal takes a good body guy 10 minutes to repair ... never bad enough to have to replace the rail... just minor expansion of the existing drain hole in the rail. If you see this the car is NOT rusty just one of these charateristics even the most pristene 2002 can have due to how caustic brake fluid is on painted metal.

This car really had really minor occurances of two of these. The pictures taken were greatly exagerated

We only purchased car back from customer as we have a waiting list for Malaga red 71/72 sunroof cars and will give it a good home. This customer was not a good home, hid purchase from wife, financed a $12K car he could not afford, could not lift a screwdriver himself, expected a $50K fully restored car despite what contract said or what we said so did not even remotely appreciative of the value he received.

The car now has had all these spots treated, fixed and old undercoat removed, heated powerwashed and treated. It is by no means a new car but about as far away from a rusty car as you can get

I think it is time to post some pics of what a serious 2002 rust problem is.. rusted out shock towers, rusted through and damaged frame rails, salt air rusted rocker structural areas ! When these car have all three of these that is a fatal condition as to expensive to repair vs. value of the car

hope this is clear

I would also post all the current pics of the car on this forum but every time I try to attach a pic it does not show up ??? Will setup a simple photo site and put complete pics of every angle aspect of the car on it :)

Funellen? Is Ellen Degeneres on this board? probably not, but she is definitely a fun person.

I don't mean for this to sound like an attack whatsoever, but if that hole was nickel sized wouldn't it take just an hour for your guy to repair before you sold it? The pictures don't look to be exaggerated, I just think you have a different scope of what is defined as "bad rust." The general definition is, if you can see through it, it's probably bad.

My car is 41 years old, and only has minor bubbles on the rockers. The car has definitely seen use, yet remains mostly rust free. If anything on my car looked like the pictures above, I would've haggled the price down immediately, then fixed it when I bought it with some POR-15.

I'm extremely curious to see pictures of the fix, please post soon.

The other thing that crossed my mind- if I owned any kind of shop that does bodywork, automatically I would search the car for any rust, and treat it, even if there is no guaranteed buyer. It's a karma thing, you're helping a car out, someone will eventually help you out.


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Ok, Jon.

Arrogance has 2 r's by the way. :-)

Let's review the pictures, shall we? I don't know how many the site will let me attach per post, so this may be a drawn-out process (not unlike this thread!)...


Rotten front fender. This is part of the "no rust issue" you state.


"Very nice" dash. Covered with very nice paint.


Out of context non-rust issue.


Separated bushing at rear subframe. Another "very nice" feature.


Missing trim piece. Part of the "very nice" package.


Crap auxiliary lights wiring job.


Custom door handle tumbler access.

Continued below...


You amuse me with your arogance. Like sitting behind a computer late at night looking at information 3rd or 4th hand and commenting as you are an expert. Why don't you throw out your full name and if you really feel so strongly that what we say is BS just call me and tell me.

Having built 60 of these cars from scratch I know what I know. The car is very nice has no rust issues whatsoever, is a pretty desirable, rare configuration and was a hech of a value at the price provided to original customer.

We have a waiting list for cars as such but we will be much more careful about managing expectations with our customers.

So if you are objective you would review complete pics of the car and draw a fair opinion... so what do you say ?


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Rare very nice mirror. What's that from, Jon? I don't recall, within my limited experience, seeing this style on an '02.


Another missing trim piece.


Custom very nice two-tone paint job. The doors were obviously painted off the car.


Another view.


Another missing trim piece.


Yet another...

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This looks like shock tower repair to me, but I'll leave that to the experts.


Custom malaga hood release bar and wiper motor cover.

Jon, the other pics I don't have much issue with. What additional pics would you like me to review?

Hey did your Ebay tii sell?



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Again, I compliment you on your attention to detail but Let me again summarize some facts

- It was a $12K nice car... not a complete total restoration

- half the issues you show pics of were modifications by customer... non matching door panels were customers... originals matched but had fasteners at bottom ? Why he changed don't know ?

- belt molding was nice, no dents but customer changed so trim alignment was his work ?

- yes dash has cracks was not new... a very common problem 3 solutions all suboptimal. WE cover in leather, use dashcaps and now BMW has started producing dashpads new so better solutions... customer did not want to pay for these

- minor floor pan rocker rust spots very common on sunroof cars . Not structural no major issues and have been fully replaced with steel and really very very minor on a 40 year old car. We have addressed early in this post

- Paint is weird as the Malaga deep red takes light differently... However, after receiving car and cleaning does not appear to an issue... Will post pics of car today and really no issue with paint ? Have Dupont Chromabase reps examining paint also to see if they can find a differance in mil thickness but had it shot with camera and all comes out the same.

- yes there is some minor overspray on a horn and windshield wiper shield nothing that is not easily remidied if important to an owner as well as trunk was repainted and sanded... no rust repairs

All in all what your posts don't balance is all that WAS done to car for $12K and the simple fact that was the contract. A nice decent car with key MAJRO upgrades not some TOTAL restoration. For the average buyer this is a bargain as the minor trim, detail items are things they can do and update themselves, save money and have some ownership in their car

However, offering this option to customers to save ALOT of $$$ is becoming less attractive as the context gets lost and folks like you who I imagine have good intentions try to make out we are taking advantage of customers which could not be farther from the truth. This approach was NOT the right approach for this buyer but he did not tell us this and he wanted a low priced car and he went from giving us all the time in the world as he hid transaction from his wife to I want it now... just not good. If he had not financed the car upfront and transfered title we would have never shipped him the car as he was on and off maybe a dozen times on car...

We have done several 2002's for 2X to 3X the price of this car this summer and I think these are more the type of cars you respect but the fact is not everyone has $20 to 30K to drop in a 2002.

Getting a broader group into a solid car in the mid to low teens has been our mission. We in general could make more $$ on the cars by just selling them AS IS or as project cars ?

I need to take the time to figure how to post pics to this thread and will post complete pics of this car and of the Green Tii.

This car in particular is a really nice car. In less then 3 days we fixed the sunroof headliner panel, installed some new trailing arm bushings, detailed undercarriage, adjusted seats etc. New owner of car wants a new dash so we are ordering out of Germany and will replace and will have door panels redone but all in all just a solid car !



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I’m really biting my tongue on this one so I’ll keep it short and clean.

I won’t go into all the blaming and picking of who is at fault or who did shoddy workmanship or even who should not have bought the car or the wife or all the other topics this has changed into that do not apply to this car

I have a simple suggestion:

Open up a free photo bucket account and stick all your pics of Randy’s car on there. I know you have hundreds but you can do a dump and save time. Hell, with your computer experience you could write a small batch file to dump them on there while your busy working on cars.

Put them all up not just the pretty ones. I believe on the other forum there was a user that had requested the pics of the floor pans to be posted numerous times and his/hers requests were rejected numerous times.

Lets see those shiny floor pans when you removed the carpet and the area of the peddle box that some say was rust through. Not surface rust but rust through.

This would be a great opportunity for the folks that cannot come the distance to Texas to see your operations and a good way to promote your business with high res detailed photos of your restoration work in progress along with pics of those outrageous square footage multi buildings you have for various stages of the restoration process.

We would be able to see the ungodly amount of hours/weeks it takes to properly take care of rust issues on a 40 year old car or the painstakingly time spent to prep a car for paint.

Meanwhile you are getting the exposure you need for a quality shop whether it be a 5 grand car or a 40 grand car.

We are on the sidelines with only half the story. Present the other half without hearsay or words as you well know a picture is worth a thousands words. We have heard what has been said from both sides on two forums now.

The best way to resolve this conflict would be for Randy to present his complaints with pics and you contend yours with the same pics.

I see another car guy has come forward after stumbling on this post and seems quite unhappy with his car. You may have to do this with this individual also and any others that happen to catch these threads by chance and feel robbed.

I do commend you for refunding that Randy guy but really didn’t think it was necessary to post all the trash about him that you did but, still good job on the refund.

I had a few friends do a check on you and your family and really do not understand your methods. (don’t worry, all legal for them to do) The corporate side seems tidy and commendable and a clean living family but when it comes to cars things take a twist. Maybe computers are your forte and car restoration is something stuck in your head from childhood days that you have to prove to someone or yourself. I don’t know just my thought. I just hope all could be resolved and you don’t have folks coming out of the woodwork when they stumble on these posts.

This is just my suggestion to possibly put an end to this drawn out beating the dead horse post.


EDIT: alright I lied. I didn't keep it short but would you feel content knowing you paid 14 K or 12K for that.

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That is the plan but only so many hours in the day... I will probably use a Shutterfly account... downloading pics now

I would prefer folks to just come inspect car themselves

Will put out the pics of the car as it came back as well as pics from customer before he sent it back.

Will also post pics of some of the other cars

As for my background all you have to do is a google search. Some highlights include engineering degrees, masters degree in Finance, 30 years of solving big problems for clients, patents, successful business startups, consulting work, re-manufacturing engineering work as well as quite a bit of philinthropic work to promote US manufacturing and competitiveness.

Quite honestly alot of our motivation in re-manufacturing these cars and others is to create employment, exports, etc. which has been reasonably successful. We are not trying to get rich building cars ... we probably could make more $ with less hassle just cleaning up and selling the cars we locate without updating them but that is not our why we are doing.

So we are not BMW 2002 finantics but more manufacturing / supply chain / build to order experts that like cars and have come to realize just how phenomenally thought out and engineered the 2002's were and are. We have also remanufactured Boss mustangs, mustang convertibles, A body GM cars, and some specialty vehicles of the same era.

By far 2002's were the best "engineered" as I think many on this forum would agree.

Our approach is by no means perfect - believe me - we learn every day - but the intent has been to help folks enjoy excellent classic cars on a budget. We have setup processes to strip cars to bare metal, paint, interiors, basic engines, high performance engines, upholstrey etc. at costs that are generally less then folks can do themselves... In our opinion these are the hard nasty, long lead time projects that prevent folks from every enjoying their cars. Many never get through any of this and just give up but most don't even try as they can see they will not succeed. Other folks overpay for a car that looks nice on the outside but end up redoing 80% of it so pay for car twice.

Several of these forum members routinely turn to us for insight, quick projects etc. Our client's include deans of engineering schools, several physicians, heads of accounting firms, engineers, scientists, advertising execs, successful CEO etc... pretty much the demographic of the classic 2002 market

When a customer wants a perfect car we build then test, test test and re-test all systems. When someone contracts for us to just paint, do basics etc. then pulling together a fully tested rebuilt car is partly their responsibility and our contracts and all dialog states that. Unfortunately some customers get hear and read only what they want to think not what is really there. We are looking to solve this expectation gap of the 1% of customers as it take an incredible amount of time to address

We brought back the car in question as have a pretty long waiting list for folks who want a nice round tailight car, with sunroof in good to excellent condition. We know everything done to the car was done right, we know car was in excellent original condition and now can tweak to take car to next level.

In fact our attorney - who told us not to take back the car as the individual had no case - came buy today and although I think he believed us when he saw how nice the car is he was shocked how nice it was vs. the customers wining. He is a car collector himself and knows cars. We did not buy car back becaue we had to period - but because we know car is done right and have strong demand for as many as we can produce.

By the way our facility open to public 6 days a week and have had alot of folks from around the country stop in and do just that that. Some scheduled some purely incidental. We welcome the interaction - I think

Just yesterday head of local 2002 user group wanted to schedule another session to go over high performance M10 engine builds. We would like to do but this type of BBoard sniping of folks just makes us think twice about whether it is worth the effort. I told him I would get back to him

You have to understand there is a downside asf this type of hyped bboard noise - without facts heavily discourages commercial efforts and not just ours.


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quote "Will put out the pics of the car as it came back as well as pics from customer before he sent it back.

Will also post pics of some of the other cars"

Do we get to see the car in question in progress as you were doing rust repair & prepping for paint.

Don't be shy. We don't mind sifting through hundreds of pics.

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Ray and Jon, and to all others watching this, I'm Patt.

Yes Ray, I told you I'd have to get involved sometime.

Jon, the last time we spoke was when Randy had his car towed to my shop about a year ago. I did feel guilty then because RANDY was standing right next to me very excited about his new car. I did not want to shoot down his hopes. We took the car on as a spare time project at a lower labor rate.

Time flies, as well as the BS that's been flying in this and the other forum.

Ray I know you, your brother and mother real well. For a couple of decades most likely. THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT. Hope your brother has luck selling his 330i.

I've known Randy for a decade maybe more. I also know his wife and two college aged kids. Our shop has fixed a bunch of cars from both of these families and now we can even say we have STARTED to fix one from Jon's family. (maybe I'm reading into this, but Jon does your son work for you and you have a family?)

I hate to tell you Jon, Randy's wife knows and did know about the car from the get go. He goes through cars. He got stung this time. I knew his luck with ebay cars would stop some day.

To the point, the car is back in Texas, Randy has not even called me to tell me it's gone. I told him I 'd prefer to STAY OFF THE NET. I'm sorry. I just had to add my 02 cents worth.I had some time on my hands and want to be sure Jon gives credit for the work Randy had done. It was NOT minimal.

I did not enjoy driving that car 20 miles to his house. I can't see how your mechanics can drive in it for two hours. The drivers seat is so far off center from the steering wheel that it is very awkward to drive. The seats sit so high that my hair stuck into the sunroof mess or lack of headliner. (more on that later?)

Ray has kept me in the loop, he saw the car shortly after it got here. He took great pictures, The guy from OBX took some great ones also.

I would like to see some more of Jon's comments as to thee quality of work we put out. He has already criticized the installation of the belt trim.

Go through the car Jon and tell them all the other things that have been done to it. Tell them how I ripped Randy off. He paid us without crying or making excuses.

It was towed here TWICE. (first time was NOT ebrake as you posted earlier but was dried out cv joints/cracked or non existent boots, second time the shifter fell out of it)

I lived with it for months...was it 9? I don't know. But it did not stay in the weather for more than a few days when I had it. By weather, I mean it was in an enclosed carport at times.(could not leave it out as the SUNROOF had issues from day 1) I usually had it in a neighbor's garage when it was not in the shop. Neighbors moved and place was for sale with an empty 2 bay garage. Still have a car there now.Then it spent some DAYS on weekends sitting 4 sale on a main highway....(probably 6 -9 weekends in the summer)

To all of you on the forum,Thanks for your consideration and taking the time to educate me. Jon has taught me so much about 2002's.

In closing, Jon, I have a 69 2002 with aplina flares. Has not moved in years. May be an ideal restoration for your guys. Ray has seen it. He could give you a detailed description or I could email pictures.

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Link to picture history of 72 Malaga red car


Since purchasing this is all that has been done to make an A condition car

- 1 week of misc labor

- $200 in paint to touchup a few nicks and scrapes + $200 in labor to paint (original refunded customer $1000 to do this work)

- $500 in parts (one soup can bushing, dash cap, misc)

+ new customer wanted black interior vs. original buckskin tan interior

- sunroof headliner panel took 1 hour to install and test

- undercarriage was in excellent shape just had original think undercoating. This was powerwashed and detailed

This is what original owner could have done and put $1000's of dollars of equity in his pocket. This was the original contract to do all the bare metal repaint, engine building, new interior and then customer was to detail car to his taste. He did some as in new belt molding (was not necessary as original was nice but new is always new). In our opinion original customer just did not do the easy stuff to make car nice...


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Happy new year JON and other readers.

I see your newly posted pictures of the minor repairs you made to the "RANDY mobile" to make it "perfect". Most of us here know how the photos are really not able to show THE perfect detail that you put into your work . They must be of the highest quality as you spent a week working on it. In our shop that would be $3200 in labor ALONE. I have seen your work. Many others have also on this forum. Your expectation of quality is different from ours.

I could not have been doing my BMW repairs since 1973 if I did the quality of work your guys do. I should apologize but I will not. You have only criticized our work and called me a rip off. You do not even know what we did to your prized machine.

I do know however how many repairs we made to the car to be able to drive it. You did not pay Randy for the repairs he had to do to make the car a "rolling restoration". You did not reinburse him for ANY items. I'll present some of the repairs in future posts (That is if anyone else here wants to read about it).

Did you disclose to the new buyer how the timing chain is so loose that the steel ball in the flywheel will not stay still when trying to set the timing? And it also sounds like it is slapping the timing cover. I remember you telling Randy how the bottom did not need a bit of work. You guy only did the head. He did not even put four nuts to hold the manual choke carb on that you said you paid 300 or more to have rebuilt.

$300 to rebuild a $275 carburetor?? There was no choke cable to actuate the choke because it was a JUNK carb off of another car. Randy spent money for the correct NEW carb and air cleaner. The bungee cord holding the NEW" Randy bought battery" in the battery tray looks good in the pictures. Why don't you fix that correctly in that week you made it perfect?

I'll send more later. I am hoping the new owner runs across this. That car has some of the worst body work and bondo FILL that I have seen from even a backyard shop.

You continued to berate Randy after you took the car back. He kept quiet like a gentleman( and as per the agreement). He took a lickin' as far as money lost. I'm confident that you will never convince the people that read this forum that that was a nice car or that Randy was fairly compensated.

Any real 2002 lover I know here would have never attempted to make that bent up, bondo filled, salvage yard rescue anything more than a parts car. It is not as nice as the two beat up rusty old 2002s that we keep going for my friends here. I have convinced them that they cannot get rid of the rust in theirs.

Yes, I am a friend of Randy's. ( At least I think I still am) He did not ask that I write any of this. I'm not sure anyone will ever forget this car up here in Virginia. Numerous customers in our shop were in dismay at the condition of this car.

More 2 come?

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