engine and drivetrain m20 install question

[Berns]

I test fitted my m20 from an 81 e21 323 with dan williams adapters and the original m10 motor mounts.

The engine sits a few inches back on the subframe so when i lower the shell onto the engine and subframe the subframe hits the nose.

Am I using the wrong mounts or am i doing something else wrong?

Also the main pulley that came with the engine has the slots i think for A/C and power steering. is there a pulley that you can recommend that is more compact?

[-=Charley]

im a little confused about what part of the subframe is hitting which part you're referring to as the nose. you shaved down the crank nose bolt and removed the auxiliary crank pulley right?

not sure of the power steering and a/c as im not using either of them. i dont believe you can run the pulley set without interference with the stock body at the crank.

this is the front pulley clearance during a test fit. [pay no attention to the black arrow]. you also see the reason why you should cut that bolt.

[-=Charley]

P.S. - i feel it's much easier to put the engine in thru the top hole by hand.

[winstontj]

The engine sits a few inches back on the subframe so when i lower the shell onto the engine and subframe the subframe hits the nose. Also the main pulley that came with the engine has the slots i think for A/C and power steering. is there a pulley that you can recommend that is more compact?

#1 - Are you using the E21 or 2002 subframe? 2002 subframe should not hit if you are using the same holes as it was bolted with the M10. Did you mofify the tow straps or compliance arm bushing mounts? If no then something is odd...

#2 - Skidmark Racing and VAC Motorsports will both make you anything your wallet can handle. They sell underdrive pulleys and can make you up the standard crank pulley of your choice.

[Berns]

The engine is hitting the firewall but the subframe is an inch forward from the holes it needs to mount in. i noticed on your blog you said you had to refab the mounts. are these the dan williams mounts and could this be why you refabed them.

If i could sit the engine on the subframe maybe an inch to an inch and a half forward all my clearance issues would be solved.

As i was taking the picture of the pulley i noticed the bolts on the inside and realized the extra part can be removed, but it does have a larger part on the back that is for some kind of sensor. i noticed in your picture you have the sprocket for the edis, could the sensor on mine serve the same purpose. if i went with the edis.

[winstontj]

Is that bottom photo of the subframe bolted in? I'm confused when you say you had to re-fab the mounts. Do you mean the plates that bolt to the motor (between the engine and the block) or do you mean the subframe mounts (that the motor mounts bolt to) or do you mean the six (three on each side) holes that the subframe bolts to the frame rails with?

If the subframe holes have not been modified they should sit in the same place as before. Don't worry about the forward clearance with the tow straps because you won't be able to bolt the subframe on with it foreward like that. Ge the subframe in the right spot and things will get a little easier.

If the engine is cocked back at an angle (say for example if you drop your rear tranny mount) You take a cube object and rotate it ~45 degrees, now the points/corners stick out further than the length of the top square. I think you may be OK...

From the photos it looks like the top of the engine needs to go forward and the bottom needs to go back, rotating the motor forward. It's sometimes hard to get things lined up when you are using floor jacks. The subframe is very flexable when not bolted in and add the weight of the M20 and it only gets softer. I'd bet if you line up your bottom subframe holes carefully that things will fall into place pretty close to spot on.

Just my opinion (having only done what you are doing with an M10, not an M20... but the same things apply...

EDIT: planes of reference:

X is the length of the car

Y if the height of the car

Z is the width of the car

Rotate the engine/subframe combo along the Z axis in the same motion that the wheels would roll forward. As this happens the tow hooks and crank pulley move aft and down, the rear of the timing cover and head move up and forward.

Hope that helps!

TJW

[Berns]

no the subframe isnt bolted in. i couldnt bolt it in because the engine hits the firewall so the holes wouldnt reach. the engine is a little tilted back but i dont think far enough to make a difference. I couldnt put it in evenly because front part of the pulley hits the lower crosmember, so i will remove the pulley and jack up the tranny and see if that makes a difference.

[Berns]

in charleys blog it says that he re-fabed the adapter that goes between the engine and the subframe, it looks like one of dan williams m20 adapters

[winstontj]

in charleys blog it says that he re-fabed the adapter that goes between the engine and the subframe, it looks like one of dan williams m20 adapters

Sorry I don't know a thing about the M20 conversion...

Also when you re-install it looks like you have a nice paint job... Take some clean shop rags and wrap them around your crank pulley, rear of the head and wherever else you are *tight*. This way you don't have to be so gentle and you can use some gentle persuasion to make things fit and you won't ruin your paint job!

I bet if you remove that pulley things will fit much better...

[Berns]

i did remove the pulley and was able to level the whole thing. it now lines up. thanks for the tip, i don't know how i didn't think of that.

[-=Charley]

yes i did 're-assemble' the passenger side dan-williams mount, but only because the tranny output flange was not lining up (tranny was hitting driver's side of tunnel). im not sure whether it was the mount or the car, but something wasn't right. in the end, i only moved the pass-side forward ~3/4". As far as the crank sensor goes, I'd just leave everything as it is and get it running first. but i really think you'll have to eliminate the a/c and power steering. having the 323i engine might let you get the engine in w/out cutting any sheet metal for the radiator. im really interested to see how this fits in the end (get ur mind out of the gutter). good luck! looks like you're well on your way. MAN is it worth it!

[Berns]

hey charley

How dificult was the megasquirt, are you using it for both efi and spark, how much do you think you endeded up spending on th ms.

[Berns]

hey charley

How dificult was the megasquirt, are you using it for both efi and spark, how much do you think you endeded up spending on th ms.

[-=Charley]

lets see. every thing ms.. including the LC-1 wideband, i think 500-600 for the electronics. give or take for wires, connectors, hardware. the real thing you'll spend is time, because it requires an ass-ton of reading. i wouldnt recommend it to start with if you have a stock motor. my motor is stroked and i didnt see the reasoning of getting the motronic re-chipped if i was going to ms anyways. if i had the motronic system tho, i'd probably be driving it daily already that aside, ms is fun to play with.. just a little scary at times.