Found an EVO S14 crank - want photo of spun bearing

[winstontj]

last night I made a few phone calls and found a guy who's willing to sell one for $150 - but it's got a spun main bearing and he says he didn't want to bother messing with it. For $150 it's almost free for an EVO S14 crank but should I even bother? This will allow me to produce a 2.5L M10 but could the crank be slavaged? No photos sorry... I'll post on saturday after I see/buy it.

Does anyone have a photo of how bad spun bearings can get. Or maybe how bad the journals can get? Again, I know it sounds like dilusions of gradure but I fully intend to duplicate this and produce a lightweight EVO S14 87mm crank.

Also am I getting ripped off? I think $150 for an evo crank in almost any condition is next to free...

[Mike Self]

a shop that will weld up/turn a bad bearing journal on a crankshaft. That's not an uncommon problem and if done correctly will make the crank good as new.

If you're lucky the journal will turn down to a proper undersize without welding.

If you're not lucky and can't find a place that can weld up your crank, drop me an e-mail. We have several such places here in Dayton (lots of machine shops, tool & die shops etc here)

cheers

mike

[Guest]

No, you're not getting ripped off. You might even be getting a steal. I paid more for a standard S14 crank that need a little bearing journal work (not much).

The M10 block, from what I have been told, doe snot like to be bored out as much as the S14 block, so qwith my standard S14 crank and smaller than S14 bores, I have approx 2.2. I forget the bore. But, I would guess with an evo crank you'd get 2.3 or 2.4ish. You can bore ou tthe M10, but it might flex, is what I was told. I didn't take the chance and most people don't.

[Guest Anonymous]

volume of a cylinder is = π r2 h

To get your rough displacement of engine you multiply the clyinder volume by 4.

Basically the max bore on a good m10 block is 92mm. Some have gone more but I have never met anyone who has had problems with 92mm.

So with a stock 80 mm crank and a bore of 92mm = ~2.127

84mm crank and 92mm bore = ~2.234

87mm crank and 92mm bore = ~2.313

In order to get to a full 2.5 litre you need to bore + 95.5mm as that would yield = ~2.4927

If you want to go down the EVO stroker path (I say go for it) find yourself a m3 block (s14) IIRC there is a different block for the EVO - different casting.

$150 is a steal.

[winstontj]

No, you're not getting ripped off. You might even be getting a steal. I paid more for a standard S14 crank that need a little bearing journal work (not much).

The M10 block, from what I have been told, does not like to be bored out as much as the S14 block, so qwith my standard S14 crank and smaller than S14 bores, I have approx 2.2. I forget the bore. But, I would guess with an evo crank you'd get 2.3 or 2.4ish. You can bore ou tthe M10, but it might flex, is what I was told. I didn't take the chance and most people don't.

You are exactly right about the bore and I'm not sure what it is but the M10 cyl. walls are too thin and can't be bored out that much. Honestly I'm right there with you... Going from a 2.0L up to a 2.35ish M10 will be so unbelievable!!! The torque is really what I'm after and as they say - "there is no replacement for displacement". I don't want to push things and I'll probably stick with either stock (one or two oversize) or maybe go up to a 90.5 or 91mm piston but NOT a 92mm because I don't want to go too thin. I want a reliable car and a 2350cc M10 will go like snot in decent tune and trim...

Evo S14 crank, pauter rods, 304 cam, billet rockers, 47/39 valves, 10.5ish:1CR, EFI ITB's..... should produce roughly 200hp/180rwhp (at least that's what I hope for!

[Guest]

Evo S14 crank, pauter rods, 304 cam, billet rockers, 47/39 valves, 10.5ish:1CR, EFI ITB's..... should produce roughly 200hp/180rwhp (at least that's what I hope for!

That's pretty close to what I have in the touring. I have an Alpina A4 injection and standard S14 crank, otherwise we're pretty much the same. I'm hoping for 180-190bhp. The Alpina A4S with 300 cam and stock M10 crank were rated at 175, so I think I'm not being unrealistic......

[winstontj]

Evo S14 crank, pauter rods, 304 cam, billet rockers, 47/39 valves, 10.5ish:1CR, EFI ITB's..... should produce roughly 200hp/180rwhp (at least that's what I hope for!

That's pretty close to what I have in the touring. I have an Alpina A4 injection and standard S14 crank, otherwise we're pretty much the same. I'm hoping for 180-190bhp. The Alpina A4S with 300 cam and stock M10 crank were rated at 175, so I think I'm not being unrealistic......

I think you are right on the money. AnthonyK (up in Alberta) runs a dual purpose car and sent me these specs: 10.8:1 schrick 304 alpina injection, S14 crank, 47/39 valves and it's good for 185hp/160 at the wheels. I'm hoping I could hit 200 just because I'll have an extra two tenths of a litre than you guys. I'll also be willing to give up some HP and possibly stick around the 170-185 range if it can be more streetable and run on a lesser grade fuel. All that I know is that the torque is going to be amazing!! I can't wait!!

[Guest Anonymous]

you should calculate your piston speed at your desired redline. it will be quite high with any sort of "modified" redline to go with that camshaft. Those paulter rods should hold but lighterweight pistons will save you on wear. That's alot of stroke for that engine. It should clean up fine but make sure your aftermarket bearings utilize the same thrust bearing thickness as stock does so you don't have a mixup at your crank grinder.

[winstontj]

here's the real question then... lets say i do find myself an evo block which is probably never going to happen... but if I do, would the M10 head fit on the evo (s14) or what? I looked into the 92mm pistons and that seems to be solid. I'm planning on going with the 87mm stroke and the 92mm piston and nothing more. Probably a set of ~10:1 pistons from Perry like many suggest and just be happy. If I really need 2.5+ litres why not just go get an M20?? Any stroker M10 nevermind an evo stroker is going to be an amazing motor so I'll be happy with that!

[Mario]

here's the real question then... lets say i do find myself an evo block which is probably never going to happen... but if I do, would the M10 head fit on the evo (s14) or what?

As few of you know me, a bit of my background as this is only my second post on this forum. I am Mario Langsten, owner of VSR1.com, a shop in NH that specializes in vintage BMWs and specializes in the early Motorsport engines. S14s, S38s etc. I rebuild 20 plus of these engines annually, and own 5 early M cars myself, and have been a 2002 owner intermittently since 1978, and a BMW Porsche tech since before I was a 2002 owner . . . nuff BS ;-)

An EVO block was originally made for the 2.5 liter, the standard S14 is 2.3 liters.

Lately BMW seems to only use the EVO block as a replacement, even for the 2.3 liter. The EVO was designed to accept a larger bore and the webbing at the bottom for the main bearings is different. Rumor has always been that the casting of the cylinderwalls is also different.

I haven't attempted to install an M10 headon an S14 block . . the challenge is the headgasket and the sealing surfaces. All S14s 2.3 liter engines have a bore larger than any M10 . . . so you need to use an S14 headgasket, and I am unsure how it fits on a M10 head. I have all this available, so it can easily be checked.

The S14 block and M10 share the same headbolt spacing, and the timing chain drive will line up with a double row chain. Use all M10 front parts.

headbolt thread size is the same.

The S14 has an oil orifice at the top of the block, for an M10 head this needs to be removed.

The big difference is how the oil drains from the head. The M10 head has fewer drains than the S14 head, so the S14 block has a longer oil return galley on the exhaust side of the block. Using an M10 head would require some ingenious way of sealing or closing off a portion of this passage.

The crankshaft . . using an S14 crank that has had a damaged bearing is not so easy. These cranks are nitrided unlike the M10 crank. S14s and M10s share main bearing sizes, so in all reality an S14 crank should be able to run in an undersize M10 bearing. NOTE< I know of no one in the S14 world that has ever ground an S14 crank and run it on M10 bearings. But an S14 spins to 7800 when chipped, way higher when built for performance.

So to build this, . . . one needs a complete S14 2.3 lower end . . .

Now comes another challenge, how much do you port the M10 head for the much larger dispacement ? and can you make it breath well enough to reach the S14 rpm potential, while still giving you lower rpm response and torque?

Why go though all of this work to build a weird engine?? There's alot of engineeering and design involved to create a new engine, and that's where I see this going . . .

A well built M10, bored oversize, with the right components and an aftermarket fuel injection set up with electronic ignition with a 5 speed and a good diff, 3.91 or 4.11, lightweight rotating components should be close . . . and simpler.

just my 02 cents worth.

Thanks,

Mario L.

[Mario]

here's the real question then... lets say i do find myself an evo block which is probably never going to happen... but if I do, would the M10 head fit on the evo (s14) or what?

As few of you know me, a bit of my background as this is only my second post on this forum. I am Mario Langsten, owner of VSR1.com, a shop in NH that specializes in vintage BMWs and specializes in the early Motorsport engines. S14s, S38s etc. I rebuild 20 plus of these engines annually, and own 5 early M cars myself, and have been a 2002 owner intermittently since 1978, and a BMW Porsche tech since before I was a 2002 owner . . . nuff BS ;-)

An EVO block was originally made for the 2.5 liter, the standard S14 is 2.3 liters.

Lately BMW seems to only use the EVO block as a replacement, even for the 2.3 liter. The EVO was designed to accept a larger bore and the webbing at the bottom for the main bearings is different. Rumor has always been that the casting of the cylinderwalls is also different.

I haven't attempted to install an M10 headon an S14 block . . the challenge is the headgasket and the sealing surfaces. All S14s 2.3 liter engines have a bore larger than any M10 . . . so you need to use an S14 headgasket, and I am unsure how it fits on a M10 head. I have all this available, so it can easily be checked.

The S14 block and M10 share the same headbolt spacing, and the timing chain drive will line up with a double row chain. Use all M10 front parts.

headbolt thread size is the same.

The S14 has an oil orifice at the top of the block, for an M10 head this needs to be removed.

The big difference is how the oil drains from the head. The M10 head has fewer drains than the S14 head, so the S14 block has a longer oil return galley on the exhaust side of the block. Using an M10 head would require some ingenious way of sealing or closing off a portion of this passage.

The crankshaft . . using an S14 crank that has had a damaged bearing is not so easy. These cranks are nitrided unlike the M10 crank. S14s and M10s share main bearing sizes, so in all reality an S14 crank should be able to run in an undersize M10 bearing. NOTE< I know of no one in the S14 world that has ever ground an S14 crank and run it on M10 bearings. But an S14 spins to 7800 when chipped, way higher when built for performance.

So to build this, . . . one needs a complete S14 2.3 lower end . . .

Now comes another challenge, how much do you port the M10 head for the much larger dispacement ? and can you make it breath well enough to reach the S14 rpm potential, while still giving you lower rpm response and torque?

Why go though all of this work to build a weird engine?? There's alot of engineeering and design involved to create a new engine, and that's where I see this going . . .

A well built M10, bored oversize, with the right components and an aftermarket fuel injection set up with electronic ignition with a 5 speed and a good diff, 3.91 or 4.11, lightweight rotating components should be close . . . and simpler.

just my 02 cents worth.

Thanks,

Mario L.

[winstontj]

here's the real question then... lets say i do find myself an evo block which is probably never going to happen... but if I do, would the M10 head fit on the evo (s14) or what?

As few of you know me, a bit of my background as this is only my second post on this forum. I am Mario Langsten, owner of VSR1.com, a shop in NH that specializes in vintage BMWs and specializes in the early Motorsport engines. S14s, S38s etc. I rebuild 20 plus of these engines annually, and own 5 early M cars myself, and have been a 2002 owner intermittently since 1978, and a BMW Porsche tech since before I was a 2002 owner . . . nuff BS ;-)

An EVO block was originally made for the 2.5 liter, the standard S14 is 2.3 liters.

Lately BMW seems to only use the EVO block as a replacement, even for the 2.3 liter. The EVO was designed to accept a larger bore and the webbing at the bottom for the main bearings is different. Rumor has always been that the casting of the cylinderwalls is also different.

I haven't attempted to install an M10 headon an S14 block . . the challenge is the headgasket and the sealing surfaces. All S14s 2.3 liter engines have a bore larger than any M10 . . . so you need to use an S14 headgasket, and I am unsure how it fits on a M10 head. I have all this available, so it can easily be checked.

The S14 block and M10 share the same headbolt spacing, and the timing chain drive will line up with a double row chain. Use all M10 front parts.

headbolt thread size is the same.

The S14 has an oil orifice at the top of the block, for an M10 head this needs to be removed.

The big difference is how the oil drains from the head. The M10 head has fewer drains than the S14 head, so the S14 block has a longer oil return galley on the exhaust side of the block. Using an M10 head would require some ingenious way of sealing or closing off a portion of this passage.

The crankshaft . . using an S14 crank that has had a damaged bearing is not so easy. These cranks are nitrided unlike the M10 crank. S14s and M10s share main bearing sizes, so in all reality an S14 crank should be able to run in an undersize M10 bearing. NOTE< I know of no one in the S14 world that has ever ground an S14 crank and run it on M10 bearings. But an S14 spins to 7800 when chipped, way higher when built for performance.

So to build this, . . . one needs a complete S14 2.3 lower end . . .

Now comes another challenge, how much do you port the M10 head for the much larger dispacement ? and can you make it breath well enough to reach the S14 rpm potential, while still giving you lower rpm response and torque?

Why go though all of this work to build a weird engine?? There's alot of engineeering and design involved to create a new engine, and that's where I see this going . . .

A well built M10, bored oversize, with the right components and an aftermarket fuel injection set up with electronic ignition with a 5 speed and a good diff, 3.91 or 4.11, lightweight rotating components should be close . . . and simpler.

just my 02 cents worth.

Thanks,

Mario L.

Thanks Mario L.

My reference to the 2.3 and 2.5L numbers were more to identify the two cranks rather than post the displacement outcome of the motor. Why would anyone ever want to build a full blown EVO 2.5L motor and then put an M10 head on it? Unless you have a forced induction motor (which I still may build) then it would be pointless. AnthonyK posted ~displacements with 84 and 87mm strokes and stock and 92mm bores. I've decided on an 92mm piston (from Skidmark Racing) and have not decided between the 84 or the 87mm stroke yet. Much of this depends on the condition of the EVO crank and the possibility of correctly being able to duplicate it with a lighter alloy steel. On some level we've all got a few nuts and bolts loose and for me this project is more to say that I can and have done or tried it rather than making the most economical easiest motor. I want to learn about the metals, the way these motors were designed and try a few things. I'll be OK if I blow a few things up along the way. I do appreciate your feedback as i currently do have two S14 blocks that could be salvaged with some work.

I'm staying with the M10 because this is a 2002 not an e30 m3. Maybe someday later in life I'll build a full race 2.8L S14 and stick it in a 2002 but until then a ~2.2L m10 will suit me fine.

thanks again,

TJW