2.3L Stroker machine shop questions

[winstontj]

I'm hoping to complete a 2.3L stroker motor by Halloween and most of the information I had seems to have gone missing.

About how much should I expect to pay to have the block/crank/timing cover/R. Main seal housing modified for the S14 crank?

Which seals and bearings do I need to use? Isn't it the S14 front & rear main seals as well as modified S14 bearing caps?

Am I overlooking anything? All I think needs to be done is the modification to the crank and covers to accept the S14 crank correct?

Any help would be appreciated. I searched the archives and when I click "NEXT" I end up at a blank search page.

TIA,

TJW

[Anthony]

Hi Tom,

Lots of questions there. Let me try to answer.

If you use s14 rods then you need s14 bearings. If you use m10 rods you need m10 bearings. Dimensionally they are the same but the configuration is different. Tangs are opposite.

The mains are the same but if you have polished your crank you may want to look at the blue shells from BMW. Great for slightly undersized journals.

Again with regard to the crank pulley it depends if you are using m10 or s14. if you use an s14 pulley you need to bore the cover to 60mm (~2.36") to accept the s14 seal.

As for pricing that is a pretty subjective question, keep in mind if you are boring to 92mm that is a lot of work for a shop , not like your typical +0.025" bore.

A

[winstontj]

I had a stock motor in my DD, blew the head gasket. Put in a new-to-me used motor in last winter. Unknown condition, it runs but now runs rough, needs valve train work and smokes on decel. I have the old motor sitting on a stand ready to "freshen up" and now the delimas set in. I'm building a race/high HP motor so spending a bunch of money building two is out of the question. Goal is to freshen up a motor and drive it, besides the car can't handle 180 to the wheels in it's current state. I have several S14 cranks so I wonder what the difference will be between just building a nice 2.0L motor with a 292 cam and 38/38 and a 2.3L motor with same or DCOE's. Also I don't have S14 rods. I don't want to say that I want to build a cheap motor, but I want a reliable solid motor.

If I use 2.0L rods, stock or one-over pistons and a 2.0L crank pulley (or I can't use 2.0L crank pulley because there's a different end size correct?) it will be pretty straight-forward right? Almost no additional cost to machine the block, same cost to do mild porting of the head, etc. correct?

I'm still going to use the good hardware but I don't want to start shelling it out for 92mm forged, valves, springs, cams, etc. Just want to know if it's dumb to try and pull off a down & dirty 2.3L semi-stock stroker? one or two over pistons, stock valves, mild porting 292 cam, what I would consider a very capable and drivable motor.

Thanks for any thoughts!

TJW

[Anthony]

There is a quick and dirty way to do it. I don't recommend it but knock yourself out/ Lots of dubious machining involved and mix and match parts.

Take 1 stroker crank 84 mm stroke. Take some audi 5000 rods. Take some m30 pistons.

Do lots of calcs, the audi rods are 136mm. Crank journals need to be resized and rods need to as well.

M30 has s lightly different comp height which works OK. Nose of crank needs to be turned down too.

Rod stroke ratio is brutal but it works. Better way is to just order forged 92mm that work with m10 rods.

Lots of work but have a go.

[winstontj]

that sounds ghetto and the machine work will be just as much as doing it right. You can't just use M10 rods and pistons with the S14 crank?

Stupid questions get stupid answers so let me have it if that's a dumbass question.

I thought I could go one of two ways, either do it right, 92mm pistons, S14 rods, chamber matching, bigger valves, injected ITB's, etc. Like the recipe you gave me a few months ago - which I am following for the REAL motor I am building.

OR I thought I could throw together an S14 crank, M10 rods & a set of stock pistons. Having not even thought about the calcs. I thought it could be done that way

No VAG parts for me. I'd rather put together a quick 10:1 2.0L for short money and spend every penny on the good one.

[Anthony]

The problem with that is that an m10 rod is designed from an m10 piston and crank so if you throw in an 84mm stroke crank your piston will be protruding into the combustion chamber by 2 mm which is a lot - all other things being equal.

here is the break down as I see it using numbers off the top of my head:

s14 crank m10 rods and m10 pistons = + 2 mm into head

s14 crank m10 rods and s14 pistons = -4.5mm

s14 crank s14 rods and m10 pistons = +4.5mm

s14 crank s14 rods and s14 pistons = about right but you will have to calculate compression ratio as the pistons were not designed for m10 heads, it is a slight dished flat top so it may work.

[winstontj]

So off the top of your head do you know what approx. CR the S14 rods, crank and pistons would yield? Unless I could come across a good used set of S14 pistons and rods for a reasonable price this is out of the question. BTW I ordered my Pauter S14 rods a week ago...

Sounds like my thrown together stroker is a pipe dream. I don't have S14 rods or pistons and any other combo doesn't seem too smart to me. Although it's been suggested that running a S14 crank, M10 rods & S14 pistons combo (-4.5mm) with forced induction would work well. I don't have my numbers in front of me so I forget how many mm = 1CR number.

The S14 isn't crank fired right? If not does it matter whether or not I use the unweighted M10 or the S14 crank pulley? I don't need an underdrive but I have been looking into something machined with an integrated crank trigger.

[Anthony]

I am not sure. I don't even remember what the volume is of a stock e12 head any more as I modify all of mine.

You would need to know the volume of your chamber be it e12, 121 e21 etc. You would also need to know the negative dish of you s14 pistons, can't help there either and I just threw out a decent set and then you could calculate.

With a 92mm bore that would increase your ratio quite a bit and potentially provide some areas and pockets when some minor detonation could occur. I am not sure what kind of quench / squich the s14 piston and m10 head would provide.

If you are interested I have a set of s14 rods available.

Anthony

[winstontj]

Anthony: replied to your email about the rods. Also spoke to the Skidmark boys about rockers, pistons & heads.... S14 stock bottom end is most ideal for my forced induction application (~8.2:1CR - e12) If I want to build a mild stroker it almost has to be your dual purpose setup with CC matched to pistons with the CR of my choice. They also said it would be a complete and total waste to use a 38/38 for that application.

Does anyone else out there know the volumes, positive or negitave, of the various pistons and combustion chambers for the M10? This would be a perfect FAQ item.

Thanks,

TJW

[DanOKC]

This is from memory, I had a metric mechanic catalog mailed to me many years ago & I think that's where I saw this data, but I think it ranges from 59 to 62 CC's from the 121 to the E12, the 2 later ones were about the same if I remember. Should be able to measure it, how do they do that ?, plug up the spark plug hole then pour sand in till it's level with the surface of the head, then pour the sand out & measure it ? Something like that.... but that would not account for piston squish, unless it's flat tops.

[winstontj]

It's easy to measure I just wanted someone to tell me. All you need is a ball of clay and some oil, wax, butter and a graduated syringe filled with water, oil, or whatever medium you want. Pistons are either concave, convex or flat tops. Flat top = 0 (zero), concave = fill it up & measure, convex = make an imprint and measure that (remember that's a positive squish or negative volume) CC = put spark plug in (because it will be in when the cyl. fires) and fill it up & measure. I have heard that water does not work, I have heard that oil does not work. A common thing that I have heard work is spraying with WD-40 THEN filling with water. The hard part is finding a graduated syringe.

Anyone have these numbers/combinations handy so we can post them?

[DanOKC]

OK, I found this: 121 58cc, E12 61cc, E21 60cc, from the Metric mechanic web site. & the 18i head is 63cc.

[winstontj]

Wondering how much for your S14 rods? I emailed you. I'll email again unless you're not interested in selling anymore. Please let me know.

Thanks,

TJW

[winstontj]

Should I use the S14 crank pulley or the M10 when using the S14 crankshaft? I would just buy the Skidmark pulley with crank trigger but I don't want an underdrive and I do need other provisions on the crank for the supercharger. Is there a good place to go for a custom crank pulley?