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I'm writing this post to create a digital record of this episode and to enlist the help of this community to prevent any further chance of it happening again.

 

It began about a week ago when my friend sent me a link to an ad on RaceCarsDirect for a 1800 TiSA race car being offered for sale by Silverstone auctions in England:

 

https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/sa073-lot-406-1965-fia-bmw-1800-ti/sa?el=15811&pn=1&pp=50

 

 "An original 1800 Ti/SA that was fully rebuilt as part of Dieter Quester/Scuderia Bavaria's successful entry into the 1991/92 FIA Historic Touring Car Championship. Raced by our vendor for the last 17 years with even more success." read the ad in glowing words. Included was a prominent picture of the VIN plate:

 

Screen Shot 2021-03-19 at 8.37.24 AM.png

Imagine my shock at seeing a car with the same VIN as my TiSA!! And a car with such notable names associated with it, and such 'provence.'

 

I immediately contacted the auction house and informed them that the car they were offering was a fake and that I had owned the original for 10 years. I sent along photos of my VIN plate, engine block stamping, radiator surround stamping, and Certificate from BMW and promised to put this information on every BMW forum I could find so that anyone interested in his car would readily find it with a Google search if they did not take immediate action:

 

Screen Shot 2021-03-19 at 9.06.48 AM.png

image002.jpg

 

image004.jpg

 

TiSA193 CertificateofAuthenticity.jpg

I received a reply from the gentlemen at the auction house handling the sale for the owner. In it he claimed that the owner had no idea and was in shock and needed time to assess his position and next steps. He also asked me not to post anything on any forums until they could figure out what they were going to do.

 

Several days passed and the auction was drawing closer and I still hadn't heard anything.

 

Well, finally this morning I received an email stating that they were going to withdraw the car from the sale! Needless to say I was quite relieved.

 

Now I am asking this community to keep their eyes out for this car re-appearing someplace else still claiming to be my car. If you see it advertised I would appreciate a pm so I can again assert the integrity of my car.

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16 minutes ago, NeueKlasseGuy said:

 

They should have pulled it immediately instead of imposing on you and your time to monitor their response.  At least I would think any auctionhouse or seller would want to do this to preserve their integrity so the could continue to sell cars.

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I love how whoever picked the number for that car just happened to choose one that has a documented history back to day one.

 

Few people know that how many 1800 TI/SAs came into North America when new. Fewer still have had access to see the ledgers at BMW Classic like@Jackie Jouret has. When folks attempt to claim a car is something it isn’t, they should do a little more research than the folks did for that one.

 

In my list I have 14 Tisas currently known to live in North America, with at least 4 more VINs I have on my list that haven’t been seen in public for a while, and a few more known to have perished.

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4 hours ago, NickVyse said:

I feel for the owner - was probably ringed years ago. Did they do a more convincing job on stamping the engine? Didn't see the original listing before it as pulled.

 

He owned the car for 17 years. The car still has a lot of interesting history and has value based on that. It is just not a TiSA. Here's the shot of the engine stamp they had in the ad. It is a much later block.

 

Screen Shot 2021-03-19 at 8.37.04 AM.png

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3 hours ago, NeueKlasseGuy said:

 

He owned the car for 17 years. The car still has a lot of interesting history and has value based on that. It is just not a TiSA. Here's the shot of the engine stamp they had in the ad. It is a much later block.

 

Screen Shot 2021-03-19 at 8.37.04 AM.png

 

The trouble is I'm not sure how it stands in the UK law right now - essentially it's a ringer and I have no idea what the legal way out of that is other than to quietly ring it again (with a 'dead' cars details this time and preferably a stock 1800 or 1800ti, or even better the original for the shell).

 

As you know it should have the little BMW logo at one or both ends of the engine/VIN number - the plus signs didn't come out that early in my experience (nor the stamping of the displacement - does that say 1,6???).

 

Someone made a few quid out of this in the past.

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  • 4 weeks later...

None of this surprises me. The TISA has been rediscovered by collectors and commands high value. Where there is value there are sharks.

 

The forgery has its flaws, though. They were pretty sloppy in using that later 1602 block. Sure, it's essentially the same small bore block as the 1600 was created by using mating the 1800 block with the 1500 crank. The 1600 is a de-stroked or short stroke 1800. But, they could have at least used a period 1800ti or 1800 block.

 

Look at the scandal surrounding the so called 356 Carrera that Seinfeld sold for a million or more ( I can't remember the exact number, but it was over a million ).  I think they cobbled together that fake Carrera in Orange County, CA. That car had every rare optional feature offered across the Carrera line. It was just too good to be true.

 

The TISA motor was a test-bed for the 2.0L. From my research I concluded that many of the features which became standard on the 02 were first introduced on the TISA. It was BMW's first demonstration of just what the M10 can do in high performance tune. These were the days before the 2.0L. And, many TISA's have since been outfitted with 2.0L high performance motors. But, having the original 1800TISA motor with matching VIN adds a lot of value to the car.

 

I've been picking up old small bore 1800ti motors when I find them. They have been overshadowed by the 2.0L, but they are nice motors. I like the drain taps on the blocks, a really cool feature. And, I like the hollow cams which are oiled from within with oil holes on the cam lobes. These are really neat and well built motors. Many people have simply  cast these motors aside. It's too bad. 

Edited by Slavs
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  • 3 weeks later...

I thought the story was over. I received an email from BMW Classic today requesting additional information and documentation for my car. Seems like the owner of the fake is putting the pressure on them to do something.

 

Was BMW involved somehow in the creation of the fake TiSA's back in the 1990's? Are they trying to cover themselves now?

 

Curiouser and curiouser.

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2 hours ago, NeueKlasseGuy said:

I thought the story was over. I received an email from BMW Classic today requesting additional information and documentation for my car. 


I’m not really surprised; they have grilled me from Germany about my NK ownership and all I wanted was a few spare parts for my lowly 2000!

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2 hours ago, NeueKlasseGuy said:

I thought the story was over. I received an email from BMW Classic today requesting additional information and documentation for my car. Seems like the owner of the fake is putting the pressure on them to do something.

 

Was BMW involved somehow in the creation of the fake TiSA's back in the 1990's? Are they trying to cover themselves now?

 

Curiouser and curiouser.

Does the fake tisa wear the vin number on the nose like yours? 

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