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Hello everyone need some advice...I bought a 68 1600 and a quick break down is that the engine is a 1.6 but not numbers matching, original trans , upgraded 320 breaks up front, no rust under the car, body was blasted and repaired with a fair amount of mud..... NOW i dont want to ruin the value of the car but being that the body is not perfect and the motor is on its last leg and not numbers matching will I ruin the car with flares, wheels, 2.0 m10, and front turbo spoiler? I am into the car for about 9k right now 

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Since its already been modified, had the original engine removed and had bodywork done, I don't think anyone would blame you for modifying it more. The only thing that would be hard to reverse/undo would be the fender flares.

 

I would start with the 2.0l motor and then if you still have enough money and still want the flares go for it.

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I wouldn't cut up an 02 to add fender flares. You'll butcher you car.

 

As far as the 2 liter engine is concerned, sure you can just drop one in there, but the 4.11 diff of the 1600 doesn't work well with the 2 liter engine and 4 speed trans. With the added long stroke and higher torque of the 2 liter coupled with the 4.11 diff and 4 speed trans your car will feel like a low geared truck, a Toyota Landcruiser comes to mind. Driving beyond 50mph in 4th will feel really uncomfortable. The 1600 feels much more comfortable at high revs due to its short stroke.

 

Furthermore, the 1600 driveshaft with its three flex guibos in place of u-joints won't hold up well to the torque of the 2 liter. If you want a 2 liter motor, you should get a 2002 driveshaft. Once you've made this decision, you got to decide on which 2002 drivetrain you want to use. The 1968 and early 1969 2002s used the long neck diff, like a 1600 of the same era, but in a 3.64 ratio. It also used the driveshaft specific to this diff. If you opt for this early set-up, you don't have to swap the rear subframe, but you should get a hold of the longneck 3.64 diff from a 68 2002. There are not many out there.

 

And, the early 1600 transmission won't work with a 2002 driveshaft due to the larger 2002 guibo flex disk at the junction of the driveshaft to transmission. The 2002 flex disk will interfere with the shift linkage of the early 1600 trans. The mating joint between the shift linkage and shift fork is located directly above the guibo on the 1600. This works for the 1600 because its guibo is smaller. But, there is not enough space for the 2002 guibo to clear this joint. On the 2002 transmissions the shift fork is slightly longer, and the joint mating the linkage to the fork is just aft of the guibo, giving it clearance. So, you will have to replace your trans with one from a 2002, if that hasn't been done already.

 

If you decide to use the more common shortneck 3.64 diff and corresponding driveshaft, you wil also have to swap out the entire rear subframe. You mentioned you have 320i brakes up front, but what about your rear brakes ? Are they the small 1600 drums, or are they the larger 2002 drums. With the 2 liter engine you should also use the larger 2002 drums at the rear. Even if you are running the 1600 motor, I still reccomed those 2002 drums.

 

Are you still running the mechanical clutch actuation, or has your clutch been converted to Hydraulic. If you decide you want to use a hydraulic clutch like all 2002s, you got to replace the pedal box with one from a 2002. And, if you do that, you got to replace your brake booster with one from a 2002 which is mounted to the firewall on a bracket connected to the 2002 pedalbox. The brake master is bolted to the booster on all 2002s. So, you would need to rebend your existing brake lines . If that doesn't work, you'll need to replace them.

 

The 2 liter will also require a larger clutch specific to it.

 

As you can see, it's a can of worms. It's not all that simple, easier said than done.

 

Doing all of this work on your own is one thing, but if you have to rely on a mechanic, you better have some deep pockets.

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I would argue that you would be doing a disservice to both yourself and the car if you didn't enjoy the car as you see fit purely because of being afraid of taking a financial risk.  These cars are awesome hotrodded/stock whatever, what isn't awesome is letting a valuation worry keep you from enjoying said car.

 

Peter articulated this feeling pretty well a couple of years ago.

 

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11 hours ago, Slavs said:

I wouldn't cut up an 02 to add fender flares. You'll butcher you car.

 

As far as the 2 liter engine is concerned, sure you can just drop one in there, but the 4.11 diff of the 1600 doesn't work well with the 2 liter engine and 4 speed trans. With the added long stroke and higher torque of the 2 liter coupled with the 4.11 diff and 4 speed trans your car will feel like a low geared truck, a Toyota Landcruiser comes to mind. Driving beyond 50mph in 4th will feel really uncomfortable. The 1600 feels much more comfortable at high revs due to its short stroke.

 

Furthermore, the 1600 driveshaft with its three flex guibos in place of u-joints won't hold up well to the torque of the 2 liter. If you want a 2 liter motor, you should get a 2002 driveshaft. Once you've made this decision, you got to decide on which 2002 drivetrain you want to use. The 1968 and early 1969 2002s used the long neck diff, like a 1600 of the same era, but in a 3.64 ratio. It also used the driveshaft specific to this diff. If you opt for this early set-up, you don't have to swap the rear subframe, but you should get a hold of the longneck 3.64 diff from a 68 2002. There are not many out there.

 

And, the early 1600 transmission won't work with a 2002 driveshaft due to the larger 2002 guibo flex disk at the junction of the driveshaft to transmission. The 2002 flex disk will interfere with the shift linkage of the early 1600 trans. The mating joint between the shift linkage and shift fork is located directly above the guibo on the 1600. This works for the 1600 because its guibo is smaller. But, there is not enough space for the 2002 guibo to clear this joint. On the 2002 transmissions the shift fork is slightly longer, and the joint mating the linkage to the fork is just aft of the guibo, giving it clearance. So, you will have to replace your trans with one from a 2002, if that hasn't been done already.

 

If you decide to use the more common shortneck 3.64 diff and corresponding driveshaft, you wil also have to swap out the entire rear subframe. You mentioned you have 320i brakes up front, but what about your rear brakes ? Are they the small 1600 drums, or are they the larger 2002 drums. With the 2 liter engine you should also use the larger 2002 drums at the rear. Even if you are running the 1600 motor, I still reccomed those 2002 drums.

 

Are you still running the mechanical clutch actuation, or has your clutch been converted to Hydraulic. If you decide you want to use a hydraulic clutch like all 2002s, you got to replace the pedal box with one from a 2002. And, if you do that, you got to replace your brake booster with one from a 2002 which is mounted to the firewall on a bracket connected to the 2002 pedalbox. The brake master is bolted to the booster on all 2002s. So, you would need to rebend your existing brake lines . If that doesn't work, you'll need to replace them.

 

The 2 liter will also require a larger clutch specific to it.

 

As you can see, it's a can of worms. It's not all that simple, easier said than done.

 

Doing all of this work on your own is one thing, but if you have to rely on a mechanic, you better have some deep pockets.

Thanks for all the information!

 

So right now she's not comfortable on the highway. At 4500rpm - 4800rpm ill be doing roughly 58-62mph and I feel like I am pushing it. I do understand these engines like rpms but I feel like I should be getting more out of it no? 

 

I would like to swap out the subframe with a later 2002 subframe with the short neck diff however what are you thoughts on replacing the rear subframe with a early 80's 320 rear subframe with a limited slip? if i'm not mistaken the rear end is right in-between the 3.64 and the 4.11. Also would also try to get a drive shaft from 320 as well. (would that mate to the 1600 trans?)

 

It is still a mechanical clutch

 

 

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2 hours ago, Nj1602 said:

Thanks for all the information!

 

So right now she's not comfortable on the highway. At 4500rpm - 4800rpm ill be doing roughly 58-62mph and I feel like I am pushing it. I do understand these engines like rpms but I feel like I should be getting more out of it no? 

 

I would like to swap out the subframe with a later 2002 subframe with the short neck diff however what are you thoughts on replacing the rear subframe with a early 80's 320 rear subframe with a limited slip? if i'm not mistaken the rear end is right in-between the 3.64 and the 4.11. Also would also try to get a drive shaft from 320 as well. (would that mate to the 1600 trans?)

 

It is still a mechanical clutch

 

 

Sounds like your engine needs a lot of work and probably the transmission too. Any idea how many miles the engine has on it?

 

From the factory your engine only had 85hp at 5800 rpm and 96 lb ft at 3500 rpm. The 1600ti was a little better with 105hp at 6000 rpm and 104 lb ft at 4500 rpm, but that was with dual solex sidedrafts. So it wasn't very powerful to begin with, which is why the 2002 was created.

 

To get all the parts you will need to upgrade everything to handle the 2.0l, you'll probably want to buy a whole 2002 parts car, preferably with a good drivetrain but bad body. This way you'll get the 2.0l engine, transmission with hydraulic clutch system,driveshaft, rear subframe with short neck differential and other stuff you'll need.

 

The E21 rear subframe  won't fit, but the 5 speed transmission, 3.91 lsd differential, slightly larger rear drum brakes and a few other things will.

 

To use the E21 driveshaft shaft with the 1600 transmission it would have to be modified, and wouldn't be worth it.

 

You might be better off selling the 1600 to someone who will restore it to original and get yourself a 2002.

 

I would like to see pictures of the whole car.

Edited by 2002iii
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The 1600 has a lot of appeal to keep and make it the way you want.  Having a true 1600 Vin in the stable with a 2.0L engine would be the best.  Find a 3.64 long neck, and your set.  Then you can make other modifications, as wanted/needed later. It gets you on the road and enjoying your BMW.

 

Cheers,

Matt

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The posts have have answered most of your questions to me. 

 

I've driven 1600s a lot over the years and on long trips. On my 400 mile trips from Los Angeles to San Francisco along Highway 5 the 1600 with stock motor, trans and diff did well climbing the steep grade of the Highway through the Grapevine. On the long flats through the San Juaquin Valley i cruised at 75 mph at about 4,500rpm. The car would settle in at this speed for hours. Sometimes, I would push it a little further on the long haul. The 1600cc handles this rpm range a lot better than the 2.0L because it is a short stroke (71mm stroke) motor in comparison to the longer stroke (80mm stroke) 2.0L motor. That 71mm stroke coupled with smaller lighter pistons and a lighter crankshaft make a huge difference, However, the short stroke of the 1600 is counterproductive to low end torque. The 2.0L motor is a more flexible motor in that it has a more consistent torque curve and starts developing quite a bit of torque at lower rpms.

 

At 4,500rpm - 4,800rpm the 1600 will be moving at 75mph - 80mph with the stock trans and 4.11 diff.  But, you mentioned you were only going 58-62mph. Something is wrong. Either your tach isn't working or someone installed a longneck diff with one of those racing ratios like 4.54 or something higher. Most of those diffs are limited slip and rare in this country. I doubt that's the issue. It could also be your speedometer.

 

One of the posts above mentions installing the long neck 3.64 diff with your existing trans and 1600 motor as a possible solution to increasing cruising speed and bring down the rpms at highway speeds. I tried this, and it works very well on the highway. It feels like the perfect ratio in 4th gear on the highway. And, I didn't loose as much bottom end as I thought I would have. This really helped on those long hauls to San Francisco. I still drove the car at 4,500 rpms on the highway, but I was moving closer to 85mph. And I could still climb pretty steep highway grades at high speed in 4th gear. The grapevine is really steep on the return trip from San Francisco. I was able to maintain 70-75mph in 4th up the steep grade. The 12% jump in gearing is the sweet spot and ideal. But, you will loose some bottom end where your 1600 will loose some of its spunk. And, it will be more noticeable with a couple of passengers. Coupling the 3.64 long neck to your 1600 is an economical way of getting the feel of an overdrive or 5th gear. If you get a hold of a 3.64 long neck, you will just need to swap the yoke or flange with your 4.11 long neck because the 3.64 unit has a 4 hole yoke while the 4.11 unit has the 3 hole yoke. If you don't have the tools just about any shop can do it for you in a matter of minutes.

Edited by Slavs
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7 hours ago, Slavs said:

The posts have have answered most of your questions to me. 

 

I've driven 1600s a lot over the years and on long trips. On my 400 mile trips from Los Angeles to San Francisco along Highway 5 the 1600 with stock motor, trans and diff did well climbing the steep grade of the Highway through the Grapevine. On the long flats through the San Juaquin Valley i cruised at 75 mph at about 4,500rpm. The car would settle in at this speed for hours. Sometimes, I would push it a little further on the long haul. The 1600cc handles this rpm range a lot better than the 2.0L because it is a short stroke (71mm stroke) motor in comparison to the longer stroke (80mm stroke) 2.0L motor. That 71mm stroke coupled with smaller lighter pistons and a lighter crankshaft make a huge difference, However, the short stroke of the 1600 is counterproductive to low end torque. The 2.0L motor is a more flexible motor in that it has a more consistent torque curve and starts developing quite a bit of torque at lower rpms.

 

At 4,500rpm - 4,800rpm the 1600 will be moving at 75mph - 80mph with the stock trans and 4.11 diff.  But, you mentioned you were only going 58-62mph. Something is wrong. Either your tach isn't working or someone installed a longneck diff with one of those racing ratios like 4.54 or something higher. Most of those diffs are limited slip and rare in this country. I doubt that's the issue. It could also be your speedometer.

 

One of the posts above mentions installing the long neck 3.64 diff with your existing trans and 1600 motor s a possible solution to increasing cruising speed and bring down the rpms at highway speeds. I tried this, and it works very well on the highway. It feels like the perfect ratio in 4th gear on the highway. And, I didn't loose as much bottom end as I thought I would have. This really helped on those long hauls to San Francisco. I still drove the car at 4,500 rpms on the highway, but I was moving closer to 85mph. And I could still climb pretty steep highway grades at high speed in 4th gear. The grapevine is really steep on the return trip from San Francisco. I was able to maintain 70-75mph in 4th up the steep grade. The 12% jump in gearing is the sweet spot and ideal. But, you will loose some bottom end where your 1600 will loose some of its spunk. And, it will be more noticeable with a couple of passengers. Coupling the 3.64 long neck to your 1600 is an economical way of getting the feel of an overdrive or 5th gear. If you get a hold of a 3.64 long neck, you will just need to swap the yoke or flange with your 4.11 long neck because the 3.64 unit has a 4 hole yoke while the 4.11 unit has the 3 hole yoke. If you don't have the tools just about any shop can do it for you in a matter of minutes.


+1

 

Agreeing with Slavs, I didn’t drive any slower while I owned my ‘67 1600-2: it cruised easily at 70-75 mph — even though the national speed limit was 55 mph during that era. The revs weren't much greater than with my 3.90 -equipped ‘76.

 

Your speedometer could be off. Although it represents a factory defect particular solely to many ‘76 models, my ‘76’s speedometer was off by 9-10%, as it rolled out the factory door! Is your speedometer original to your car? You can’t know for certain, but the date stamps on the reverse, when compared to your car’s manufacturing date, can provide a good indication. Your tachometer could be off. Do you know your car’s actual differential ratio, today, as opposed to it’s likely factory ratio of 4.10? Are your tires a stock diameter or close thereto? Overall diameter of the original 165/80-13 tires was approximately 23.4”

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

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On 2/15/2021 at 1:33 PM, Nj1602 said:

I bought a 68 1600 and a quick break down is that the engine is a 1.6 but not numbers matching, original trans , upgraded 320 breaks up front, no rust under the car, body was blasted and repaired with a fair amount of mud..... NOW i dont want to ruin the value of the car but being that the body is not perfect and the motor is on its last leg and not numbers matching will I ruin the car with flares, wheels, 2.0 m10, and front turbo spoiler? I am into the car for about 9k right now 

 

Re: ruining value of the car = Research the price of 1600's (Bring a Trailer has a search tool for this), and do the math/projections. -KB

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9 hours ago, Slavs said:

The posts have have answered most of your questions to me. 

 

I've driven 1600s a lot over the years and on long trips. On my 400 mile trips from Los Angeles to San Francisco along Highway 5 the 1600 with stock motor, trans and diff did well climbing the steep grade of the Highway through the Grapevine. On the long flats through the San Juaquin Valley i cruised at 75 mph at about 4,500rpm. The car would settle in at this speed for hours. Sometimes, I would push it a little further on the long haul. The 1600cc handles this rpm range a lot better than the 2.0L because it is a short stroke (71mm stroke) motor in comparison to the longer stroke (80mm stroke) 2.0L motor. That 71mm stroke coupled with smaller lighter pistons and a lighter crankshaft make a huge difference, However, the short stroke of the 1600 is counterproductive to low end torque. The 2.0L motor is a more flexible motor in that it has a more consistent torque curve and starts developing quite a bit of torque at lower rpms.

 

At 4,500rpm - 4,800rpm the 1600 will be moving at 75mph - 80mph with the stock trans and 4.11 diff.  But, you mentioned you were only going 58-62mph. Something is wrong. Either your tach isn't working or someone installed a longneck diff with one of those racing ratios like 4.54 or something higher. Most of those diffs are limited slip and rare in this country. I doubt that's the issue. It could also be your speedometer.

 

One of the posts above mentions installing the long neck 3.64 diff with your existing trans and 1600 motor as a possible solution to increasing cruising speed and bring down the rpms at highway speeds. I tried this, and it works very well on the highway. It feels like the perfect ratio in 4th gear on the highway. And, I didn't loose as much bottom end as I thought I would have. This really helped on those long hauls to San Francisco. I still drove the car at 4,500 rpms on the highway, but I was moving closer to 85mph. And I could still climb pretty steep highway grades at high speed in 4th gear. The grapevine is really steep on the return trip from San Francisco. I was able to maintain 70-75mph in 4th up the steep grade. The 12% jump in gearing is the sweet spot and ideal. But, you will loose some bottom end where your 1600 will loose some of its spunk. And, it will be more noticeable with a couple of passengers. Coupling the 3.64 long neck to your 1600 is an economical way of getting the feel of an overdrive or 5th gear. If you get a hold of a 3.64 long neck, you will just need to swap the yoke or flange with your 4.11 long neck because the 3.64 unit has a 4 hole yoke while the 4.11 unit has the 3 hole yoke. If you don't have the tools just about any shop can do it for you in a matter of minutes.

Again thank you for all the info this helps me a lot! So i do have a sweaty 2.0l motor getting rebuilt right now so I guess the best option/cost affective would be use the 2.0l motor with a early 3.64 long neck diff

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