Jump to content

Car won’t start - switching back to points?


popovm
 Share

Recommended Posts

Yes, another car won’t start thread.... i’ve done some digging on the forum but haven’t been able to figure this out so starting a new thread here. 
 

I bought my car (1976 2002) in early November. It always ran rough at idle but 3 weeks later it completely died while out driving. It hesitated a few times, I put some fresh gas in since I thought it could be running out, but then it hesitated one last time and then completely died. I am not seeing any spark when grounding out the plugs or the wire that goes from the coil to the dizzy. 

 

I am thinking the Pertronix that is in the car has died. I am not sure it was wired correctly and am thinking of putting in some points and condenser that I have to rule out the ignition module. I think I know how to wire in the points and condenser (wire from the spade plug on the condenser into the #1 terminal on the coil) but I am not sure what to do with this other black wire that comes out of the wire harness and is currently connected to the black wire on the Pertronix. It doesn’t go to the coil per the Pertronix install instructions, it runs all the way to the drivers side and is bundled up with the rest of the harness on that side. I haven’t been able to figure out exactly where it goes but maybe someone here will know what I should do with it once I remove the Petronix. I’ve attached a drawing of how my car is wired up. 
 

Alternatively, feel free to tell me if you think I should go in another direction before I start redoing my ignition system. :)

image.jpg

Edited by popovm
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • popovm changed the title to Car won’t start - switching back to points?

You'll want to check this Wiring diagram.  Looks like red wire was added for petronix, so get rid of it. Black wire from distributor goes to negative on coil. Black wire from coil to body harness is for tachometer.  Red black wire goes to starter for voltage boost during starting. Also if resistor was removed for petronix your going to need that or a blue coil with 3 ohm resistance built in.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The green wire is your "run" positive supply, the black/red is +12V 'start' for a ballast ignition. The black wire connect distributor to coil negative and provides tach signal.

To go back to points put the green to coil + and connect the black at coil neg and to the single terminal on the dizzy body. That's it.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick update. I wanted to set the static timing to rule that out first as a reason for no spark but also mark the flywheel dot for the full timing in the future. That’s done, it was 180 degrees out. Probably my fault when I was swapping out  the wires after it had died, but still no spark! Going to dig into the distributor tomorrow and if I have all the right hardware, I’ll swap out the pertronix for points. 
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This post has a diagram that will be helpful to you.  Specifically the one by JohnN (I think its the nine post in the thread).  He posted a diagram showing the wiring for points as opposed to a Pertronix module.  

 

They work fine as an alternative to points.  If yours is the standard "Ignitor" flavor, then it's possible to destroy it if you leave the ignition switch powered without the engine running.  Google it and you'll get a detailed explanation (that way I don't have to type it out here).  The Ignitor II doesn't suffer from the same fault.  My Triumph TR6 that just got totaled (thanks douche in white Wrangler!) had one for at least 8 years with no trouble.  I've never had one just fail while I was driving, but I've destroyed a few from leaving the ignition powered on, or from shorting a wife by accident a few times.   If its still under warranty, Pertronix will replace the unit no questions asked (keep that in mind if you buy another). 

 

Pull the unit out of the distributor and look at the white label stuck to the module.  If it looks like its gotten hot, and the label looks burned then the unit is done.  You can test it with a multimeter, but the burned label is a dead giveaway that its toast.  

 

 

 

Edited by Tdh
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, so I set the timing to TDC. I then had an epiphany/facepalm moment laying in bed the night of the 30th. 
 

I realized that the black wire coming out of the dizzy and heading back into the harness actually had a dual spade connector on it. I plugged that into the open negative/#1 terminal on the coil and it started right up. 🤦🏼‍♂️ Part of my problem is that I didn’t think the connector could just pop off the coil while driving like that. Sorry if I wasted ya’lls time, but I learned a lot, including how to static time to TDC, replaced the crusty plug wires and that my pertronix is still good.
 

I still think it’s wired wrong since the red and the black from the dizzy are going straight to the old crusty Bosch black coil that only measures 2.2 ohms. The resistor wire is still in play (see diagram above), but I am going to take a look at that thread linked above to see how it should be wired, but it might not matter because I just ordered the 3 ohm pertronix flamethrower coil and will be wiring directly from the green “run” supply, pertronix red, and the pertronix black. 
 

Thanks for everyone’s input! I’ll update again once I’ve installed the new fancy coil. 

Edited by popovm
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/31/2020 at 7:48 AM, Tdh said:

This post has a diagram that will be helpful to you.  Specifically the one by JohnN (I think its the nine post in the thread).  He posted a diagram showing the wiring for points as opposed to a Pertronix module.  

 

They work fine as an alternative to points.  If yours is the standard "Ignitor" flavor, then it's possible to destroy it if you leave the ignition switch powered without the engine running.  Google it and you'll get a detailed explanation (that way I don't have to type it out here).  The Ignitor II doesn't suffer from the same fault.  My Triumph TR6 that just got totaled (thanks douche in white Wrangler!) had one for at least 8 years with no trouble.  I've never had one just fail while I was driving, but I've destroyed a few from leaving the ignition powered on, or from shorting a wife by accident a few times.   If its still under warranty, Pertronix will replace the unit no questions asked (keep that in mind if you buy another). 

 

Pull the unit out of the distributor and look at the white label stuck to the module.  If it looks like its gotten hot, and the label looks burned then the unit is done.  You can test it with a multimeter, but the burned label is a dead giveaway that its toast.  

 

 

 

That sucks about your TR6. I hope you at least were compensated adequately. 
 

 I re-read that thread.  I actually was referencing it and I am pretty sure contrasting it against my drawing earlier in this thread is what finally forced my newb brain to make the connection (ha) about how things should go. 
 

On to working on the exhaust fumes in the cabin and rough idle! I’ve already found multiple threads to get me started on that too. This forum is great!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol sometimes it's the little things. When you put the new coil in you might want to use some pliers to crimp the spade connectors or replace them. When the spade connectors get pulled on and off a lot they get loose and can fall off with vibration.

 

Exhaust fumes in the cabin is usually rust holes or missing body plugs.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 2002iii said:

Lol sometimes it's the little things. When you put the new coil in you might want to use some pliers to crimp the spade connectors or replace them. When the spade connectors get pulled on and off a lot they get loose and can fall off with vibration.

 

Exhaust fumes in the cabin is usually rust holes or missing body plugs.


Yeah, I’ve also read that the trunk lid seal, exhaust tip being too short, or even taillight seals can allow fumes to be sucked back into the cabin. I’ll check for body plugs. I would not be surprised if this car is missing some or all. I know for sure I have a rust hole around the gas tank that I am going to need to figure out how to plug. I knew there was rust repair in my future but it might be earlier than expected and and starting in the trunk instead of the pedal box. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/30/2020 at 9:52 PM, popovm said:

Quick update. I wanted to set the static timing to rule that out first as a reason for no spark but also mark the flywheel dot for the full timing in the future. That’s done, it was 180 degrees out. Probably my fault when I was swapping out  the wires after it had died, but still no spark! Going to dig into the distributor tomorrow and if I have all the right hardware, I’ll swap out the pertronix for points.

Just for the sake of discussion, incorrectly adjusted timing is not going to cause a no spark situation. It will just cause the spark to occur at a time which if too far out of adjustment one way or the other will cause your motor to not fire/start.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Chris_B said:

Just for the sake of discussion, incorrectly adjusted timing is not going to cause a no spark situation. It will just cause the spark to occur at a time which if too far out of adjustment one way or the other will cause your motor to not fire/start.


That’s really good to know for future troubleshooting, thanks. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Upcoming Events

×
×
  • Create New...