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My current tii dilemma


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Hey Everyone,


I’m reaching out to you guys to see if there’s maybe another alternative that I haven’t thought of.  I currently own a 1972 2002tii with the original matching numbers engine.  I love the car, I love the color (Colorado), and it checks a lot of boxes for me except I just wished it had a bit more power.  My car runs great especially with the e21 rear diff and the 5 speed swap.  If I had the space, I’d likely just pull the motor out and put in something else and keep the matching numbers motor in the back of the garage.  But I don’t have the time nor the skills to really make that an option.  It’s my understanding that there’s really not much to do in order to modify the tii unless you get rid of the Kugelfischer and do a different fuel management system which I’d have a hard time doing.  Not to mention the rest of the engine work.  I’m not a complete purist, it’s just that this car in its current form is likely perfect for someone else, just not me.  My gut is telling me to sell the tii and find another 2002 with a built motor in it to satisfy my HP craving.  In a perfect world I would trade it for a similar condition car with an S14 in it but the prices seem to be getting a bit ridiculous.  The M20 swap also looks a bit interesting.  …… At the end of the day, I love the 2002 platform, the community, and frankly this exact car.  I just wished it had another 50hp or so.

 

What do the tii guys do if they want more power? 

 

PS – I don’t autocross, or race, I just like having spirited drives in the country.

 

Thanks in advance for the emotional support :)

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IMHO your cheapest and fastest way to go would be to use the idea you rejected and have another engine built and installed by someone, there are several in the Seattle area who would be glad to do it, but compared to switching cars and getting the new car sorted out to the level of your Tii (very nice car by the way) will take time and money. As for storing your Tii engine if you remove the intake and exhaust manifolds they don't take up much room at all. 

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If I were you I’d look for a car with a swap that I would want to buy. It’ll be easier that any swap. Once you find it sell your tii, you’ll probably be money ahead. Otherwise remove the kfish, add efi and a turbo. Easy to swap back, easy to make 180hp, etc. 

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Well, to bluntly input my opinion regarding your intensely personal choice .. if the flared/hotrodded car in the photo were mine..... I would have put an M20 in it yesterday and have been laughing in melody with that straight six snarl today ..... regardless of what the badge on the back says.  Then again, I don't view the 2002's pedigree as some sort of investment (this mindset has unfortunately begun to propagate itself within the community). 

 

Whatever you do, don't sit in limbo forever.... I know too many people who are kept from happiness only by their own indecision.  

 

 

To boil it down. 

 

"Does hearing/saying/typing/reading the moniker "tii" give you more or less joy than if you were driving a hopped up 02 on your favorite drive.?" 

           - Marie Kondo (probably)

 

If yes, keep it as is and sleep easy.

If no, decide from the outset how far you want to jump down the rabbit hole?  (this is where politely asking people for rides at shows is extremely helpful, actual experience feeling how different cars drive trumps our opinions).  Sidedrafts?  Swap?  Keep it BMW?  etc.  All of these have been discussed for decades on here, so you'll fine plenty of archived opinions.

 

Best of luck!

 

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...or cruise in the 3-5k rpm region in all gears where the max power range is.  The engine loves it and with a modest exhaust note your not the loudest guy on the road.

 

On the frèeway I especially like shifting into 4th at 70mph.

 

I enjoy driving my stock tii like that often but sometimes I'll just cruise in the 2500rpm range like a Sunday driver.

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There will be lots of opinions but ultimately it's that balance of time/money/scope creep. 

 

For my personal journey.......

I was fortunate enough to come across an a4 setup for my tii. I spread out the costs of having it rebuilt by Wes Ingram and then having him install it. Coupled with a dogleg it is a wonderful car to drive and always brings a smile. With a custom exhaust from Midnight Motorsports the intake/exhaust sounds are a sheer delight. I've kept the original setup w/ plastic runners for no reason other than being sentimental. 

I've not yet dyno'd the car but maybe i'll see 150-160ish (has a 292 cam) but that really isn't important to me.  No, the car is not 100% original but keeps in being period correct - I'm more than happy with the car (it does bring me joy) and don't ever plan on selling after owning it for nearly 43 years. 

 

If i had a clean slate....

Option 1: find another clean/straight '02 and S14, 

Option 2: find another clean/straight '02 and hotrod a m10 (non-turbo but that's me) 

Option 3: find a clean straight 70/71 911s 

 

good luck 

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1 hour ago, jfunk said:

PS – I don’t autocross, or race, I just like having spirited drives in the country.

:)

 

 

I think this is the point to focus your attention on...

 

What and when - during those spirited drives - do you notice your 2002 being short on power? Or responsiveness? Or fun? (I’m curious, too, to know if you’ve had the car tuned, put it on the dyno, etc, to make sure you get the most out of it.)

 

It is possible that a change in diff gearing and a close ratio gearbox (not your typical O/D 5 speed) might get you to where you’d like to be. -KB

 

Edited by kbmb02
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1 hour ago, ColinK said:

No, the car is not 100% original but keeps in being period correct - I'm more than happy with the car (it does bring me joy) and don't ever plan on selling after owning it for nearly 43 years. 

 

I never get tired of looking at that set up.  Beautiful.  

 

I'd say it's the absolute ultimate upgrade back in the day.  There's original and then there is period original.  You check both boxes and then some.

 

I look forward to seeing that in person someday.  When we can travel again.

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Thanks guys for the responses...  I truly appreciate the thoughts.  When I bought the car I was told it had 15K on a factory rebuild.  I have no idea what that means and unfortunately I don't have any paperwork to back up that claim.  This is my first 2002 and frankly the only one I've ever driven.  Patrick at Midnight Motorsports has always offered to have me come on down and drive some different setups (side drafts, M10 Turbos, M20, M42s, etc) which I suppose is a logical next steps.  I've never had it on a dyno and have always been curious as to what it would do.  Probably not a bad next step either. 

 

Admittedly, I've been convinced to keep the tii powerplant the way it is and not mess with it in fear of it depreciating the car.  I've also been led to believe that the infamous Kugelfischer, while stout and mighty, shouldn't be messed with.  But perhaps putting the K-fish on the shelf and throwing in a new cam, high compression pistons, and some jenvey ITBs wouldn't be the worst thing for it.  And all fairly reversible if one wanted to go that route. Right?

 

As far as the reason for more power... that's one of those questions that's kind of hard to answer.  I don't reeeeally need more power, I just want more power.  I just feel that the fun factor could be increased if it was putting 175-200hp at the wheels.  I don't need 300hp or anything ridiculous...  I bought the car to be kind of canyon carver.  I don't know... frankly this is the first time I've vocalized my thoughts out loud so I suspect I'm using you guys as some sort of therapy. lol!

 

 

 


 

 

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You have received a lot of good advice, I would Suggest that you drive another Tii to see if your car is up to par, a set of clean injectors can make a big difference... the secret to having fun driving a 2002 is keeping the RPMs up in the power Range...

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I recently rebuilt my tii motor and thought about going down the rabbit hole of "well, while I have it apart...". What I found after looking around a bit (and I might be off on this so id wait for someone more knowledgeable on the subject to confirm it) was that while there really isn't much you could do without needing to mess with kfish stuff, what you CAN do is make it a stroker to get some extra power out of it. I ended up going with just a stock rebuild due to time constraints though.

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