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What kind of real HP numbers for the different race classes


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Anybody have any real numbers of what is expected/possible for the various race classes an 02 may run in?  I'm specifically interested in SCCA EP and GT3, along with some of the Vintage classes.  What does it take to get these numbers and what would it cost to build an engine to those specs?    I have two "race" engines with unknown internals.  I did not get any paperwork with this car when I picked it up from an estate back in the early 2000s.  Hope is to build one engine for EP and one for GT3.  Car already has all the bolt on goodies, like Webber DCOE 45s and Dellorto DHLA 40s, accusump, MSD, oil cooler, close ratio 5 speed, box flares, fuel cell, full cage, fiberglass body panels, etc.  It was, is, and always will be a race car.  I want to send at least one engine to my trusted engine builder, because he called me yesterday looking for some work.  Guess times have been slow building race engine over the pandemic.  My back up engine is sitting under the bench in my garage.  All I know about it is that it came with twin 45s on a Warnford intake, and has a camshaft that has Serra 300 stamped on the end.  It ripped when I got it started and pulled it from a car 10 years ago, so I know it has something done to it and it ran strong.  Plan is to send it to him for a tear down, but I need to formulate a plan after that in conjunction with advice and the rule book.  

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It all depends on what dyno you are using.  Some are calibrated in Shetland Ponies and others in Clydesdales.  I use one engine dyno and one chassis dyno and just do the best I can on them. They are t

You can’t run as a Bauer Cab? 

If I had to start from scratch with nothing,  just the engine would probably be in the $18k-20k range. This is for a carbureted, wet sump engine, if you want FI it's probably another $4-5k with the IT

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EP is not about the engine-

the 2002 is too boxy to have a chance against cars with less frontal area.

In FP with limited engine prep rules, if you can make 225, you're probably regionally competitive.

Gordon (GRacer) south of Portland runs a 1600 in H- I suspect his 1600 makes close to 200.

But it's hard to get torque out of a 1600.

 

GT3, the sky's the limit.  Again, aero's hard to beat. 

Crud, the "Vintage" guys around here 

are making over 250.

 

Ask Byron (Preyupy) what he can build for you- I'll bet he's nudging 300 with some of his customer engines...

 

t

making up numbers based on sheer guesstimations.

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200 !  My HP motor put out 113.9 to the ground.  In H Production the engine is limited to 11:1 compression, .450 lift on the cam,32MM chokes in the carbs. No Porting/polishing.

F Production is limited to 12:1 compression, .450 lift on the cam, Injection with stock throttle body. No porting/polishing.

E Production you can do anything to the motor but you are limited to sidedraft carbs with 38MM chokes or injection with stock throttle body.

As has been said the 02 body isn't competitive in modern racing because of its unaerodymatic body.

My car was clocked at 115 MPH at Road America and Indianapolis in HP trim.

I was able to go 128 MPH at Spokane in FP trim.  G

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It all depends on what dyno you are using.  Some are calibrated in Shetland Ponies and others in Clydesdales.  I use one engine dyno and one chassis dyno and just do the best I can on them. They are the only ones I will compare numbers with, right or wrong.  The only true comparison is either on the same dyno under the same conditions or side by side on the same track.  The old track configuration at Portland used to be called the Asphalt Dyno. Road America and Road Atlanta are 2 other tracks where HP/Drag ratio are as important as handling and braking. We stopped racing a 2002 in GT3 back in 1982 when the 200SX Datsun showed up, we could race with them at Sears Point and Laguna Seca but at Road Atlanta at the runoffs they were 8-10mph faster on the straight, we couldn’t even DRAFT them!  
 

On the engine dyno I use, the best I have seen out of a 2013cc engine (89.5mm bore 80mm stroke) 13:1 with a 336 Schrick cam and lots of head work was 228 @8200 rpm.  

I have a 2313cc engine (92mm bore 87mm stroke) on the stand waiting to go into my car that made 249 @8100 but AVERAGED 161lb/ft of torque between 3500-8000 rpm. This was on 48 DCOEs with 42 mm chokes.  I’m running 45mm ITBs and EFI now, it’s also dry sumped.  It’s not legal for any racing class I know of in a 2002. This is my street/ track toy. 

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9 hours ago, gracer said:

200 !  My HP motor put out 113.9 to the ground.  In H Production the engine is limited to 11:1 compression, .450 lift on the cam,32MM chokes in the carbs. No Porting/polishing.

F Production is limited to 12:1 compression, .450 lift on the cam, Injection with stock throttle body. No porting/polishing.

E Production you can do anything to the motor but you are limited to sidedraft carbs with 38MM chokes or injection with stock throttle body.

As has been said the 02 body isn't competitive in modern racing because of its unaerodymatic body.

My car was clocked at 115 MPH at Road America and Indianapolis in HP trim.

I was able to go 128 MPH at Spokane in FP trim.  G

See, I TOLD you I was making up the numbers!

 

I'm kinda hoping that I'll be regionally ok in F with the 160(ish) the limited prep MIGHT be able to make with a tailwind.

 

SCCA took off a bunch of weight a long while back, but we still can't take off the roof...

 

 

t

 

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23 hours ago, uai said:

In germany the best 2 liter 8 valve cars in youngtimer trophy are ~ 250hp

But they need a rebuild after ~30 hrs

to put this in relation I might have to add. These are not "normal" race engines. They comply with regulations but those heads are very developed - custom made 7mm (or less) stem valves have different position and/or angle thus requiring custom rockers and custom cam grinds - intake port area complies with regs but might be moved a bit... Intake Valves are 50mm (and beyond)
One of the builders is said to close a lot of the openings in the heads by welding and to re-machine again afterwards...

Edited by uai
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14 hours ago, Preyupy said:

I have a 2313cc engine (92mm bore 87mm stroke) on the stand waiting to go into my car that made 249 @8100 but AVERAGED 161lb/ft of torque between 3500-8000 rpm. This was on 48 DCOEs with 42 mm chokes.  I’m running 45mm ITBs and EFI now, it’s also dry sumped.  It’s not legal for any racing class I know of in a 2002. This is my street/ track toy. 

Nice numbers.

If you were doing a turn key install for a customer on this power plant and related drivetrain what would be the final bill?

What fuel would this beastie require?

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3 hours ago, gary32 said:

Nice numbers.

If you were doing a turn key install for a customer on this power plant and related drivetrain what would be the final bill?

What fuel would this beastie require?

If I had to start from scratch with nothing,  just the engine would probably be in the $18k-20k range. This is for a carbureted, wet sump engine, if you want FI it's probably another $4-5k with the ITBs, ECU, fuel system and tuning.   You would need to run 110 octane race fuel and the engine would need a rebuild every 30 hours or so.  The rest of the driveline would be up to you.  Close ratio gearboxes would be recommended, you can find them for anywhere between $4500-10,000 depending on what you get (BMW or aftermarket) Then you need to decide on a final drive ratio depending on where you are running.  

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21 minutes ago, gary32 said:

Race motors and craftsmanship are expensive.

Thank you for the real life answer and sorry to hi jack this thread.

2002 owner wants to hire a shop for 175-200 rear wheel hp with BMW power, 100k mile motor.

What route would you take?  

Turbo,  Probably a M10 but maybe a M42.  Lots of people will jump in here and say M20. It is a great engine, it's just too heavy for my tastes in a 2002.  

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