Jump to content
  • When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Can you throttle steer a FWD car?


AustrianVespaGuy

Recommended Posts

One of those uncommon days where I had reason to drive both the 2002 and minivan in quick succession and it got me thinking.  I've seen plenty of quick, well-driven Minis/Hondas/Focuses/etc. at several auto-x and/or track events, but I honestly don't understand how one drives a FWD car aggressively like that and now I'm really curious.  I mean, when I'm in one of my BMWs in a hard corner it's sorta second-nature to fine tune the car's attitude with some throttle input.  A small amount to just help push that nose in a little tighter or a healthier amount to get the tail to finish coming around while unwinding at the exit.  But when I do anything even remotely like that in the minivan (totally different animal, I know, but still) or my wife's car, then the front tires just go all mushy, lose grip, and I never feel like there's much I can do other than let off and just wait for the silly thing to find its feet again.  I don't mean at all uncontrolled mind you, not being a menace out there, this is just that split second thing when I'm one of my well-known corners but then reminded I'm stuck in the wrong car.  So how is it done differently in a FWD car? Again, I've seen plenty out there and know it can be done, but it must be fundamentally different somehow.  Is it all about a lot of trail-braking maybe? That's not something I do very much of, so might explain things a little. Help me figure this one out. . . ?

Edited by AustrianVespaGuy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It makes a huge difference how the car is set up.  A rear wheel drive car you have the advantage of being able to exceed the available grip at the rear of the car by just adding enough power to spin the tires. With a front drive car you have to be able to do it by side loading the tires as much as you can and then using the throttle to transfer weight from the rear tires to the front.  There is a reason left foot breaking is more popular in front wheel drive cars. The serious autocrossers set their cars up very stiff in the rear to help balance the turn in. 

Edited by Preyupy
  • Like 2

1970 1602 (purchased 12/1974)

1974 2002 Turbo

1988 M5

1986 Euro 325iC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm no expert, but I've been fooling around with a Saab 900 for the last year or so, and I've started to wrap my head around going quickly in it. In a nutshell, in FWD you steer the rear axle with the brakes. With RWD you're able to balance with the throttle in the corner to get the car pointed; with FWD, it's more about balancing with the brakes while using the throttle to pull the car through. For me, it usually boils down to pitching the car in to get the rear end moving (the Swedish flick is a real thing), getting into the throttle early, and hauling the car through (with left foot or handbrake as necessary, surface-dependent). It's very different than my autox experience in BMWs, but it can be quite entertaining, especially on loose surfaces.

  • Like 1

--

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You most definitely can. 

 

Depending on how your suspension is setup, typically you lift/brake into a corner to unweight the rear and initiate over-rotation, then apply throttle to balance between pulling yourself thru and out of the corner while minimising understeer.

 

And yes, left-foot brake. 

 

This experience coming from being a goon in FWD cars thru highschool, and being an absolute terror on CA 152 Hecker Pass for years in a hand-me-down PT Cruiser, before I got an actual fast car. :)

 

 

Edited by 2002Scoob
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best thing about FWD in Touring Car racing is when they can save a massive tank slapper by sticking the boot in to accelerate the front of the car out of the slide. One of the best examples..

 

https://youtu.be/QuTNmVoUR5E

 

 

Edited by NickVyse
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good info, thanks guys!  Must take some pretty decent footwork to be able to quickly and smoothly transfer from a heel/toe downshift before a corner to left-foot braking for the corner, huh?  The physics is starting to get clearer though.  I think in my own driving 'style' I've always tended to focus on yaw rotation and not so much on the pitch of the car, but seems pitch probably becomes the more important dynamic for FWD. And that was one heck of a cool save in that race there Nick, wows!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AustrianVespaGuy said:

 tended to focus on yaw rotation and not so much on the pitch of the car,

 

Focused on yaw rotation through decreasing the grip in the back by spinning the tires, allowing the 'grip balance' to be biased to the front, letting the rear have less and rotate.  Well if that's the case, then lifting really hard on turn in would also cause a grip imbalance, no?  With way more grip from load (weight transfer from lifting, so way more normal force, so way more grip), the back has less because less load, lateral force already applied, car can rotate.  I've ever only tried a little- you have to really want to do it.

Dave.

'76, totally stock. Completely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

when my car broke at one of the events and I got to drive someone FWD car, I quickly came to realization how much tyat car could rotate under breaking. what needed to happen in the tern is to start steering while under breaking and as soon as the car was getting close to loosing it, get on the throttle and drive it out. I changed the suspension on my car to get a bit of that feeling. 

 

Steve K. 

  • Like 1

Get your 2002 FAQ merchandise from 2002FAQ Store

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are probably better examples, but watch the Saab 96 at 6:36 in this video to see an instance of the Swedish flick I mentioned, the whole point of which is to unsettle the rear end before turning in. Note how the car rolls a bit, and the rapid back-and-forth of the front wheels before entering the corner.

 

 

  • Like 1

--

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, irdave said:

Focused on yaw rotation through decreasing the grip in the back by spinning the tires

Well I'm talking my lower-powered 2002 and E30 momentum cars, so I'm not usually breaking the whole rear end free, more of balancing steering and throttle input for attitude control after turn-in.  But that doesn't shift much front/rear loading in the same way brake modulation does!  I'm starting to think that's one of the key FWD vs. RWD differences now from this conversation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

 

Depending on how your suspension is setup, typically you lift/brake into a corner to unweight the rear and initiate over-rotation, then apply throttle to balance between pulling yourself thru and out of the corner while minimising understeer

 

It's this.  If you youtube the BTCC, especially, to go fast a FWD car has to be set up to lose the rear end when you INITIATE

the turn aggressively.

Then when the fronts transfer grip to the rear under throttle, the car 'vector steers' (you pull the nose where you want it to

go with the front tires in full slip) and it drags itself in the direction you want it to go,

 

It is truly instructive to watch a gaggle of touring cars pile into a corner-

the FWD cars bump the RWD cars in the rear corners,

and they have to lose a TON of velocity to catch it, while the FWD cars just plant their throttles and fly by.

 

Since the cars have to be set up for transition oversteer, it's a lot harder to get a street car to go fast.

They just plow. because 'oversteer is dangerous' in the hands of 97% of your street drivers.

Now, unless you have an earlier Saab, the parking brake works on the rear wheels....

 

t

learned to drive in the snow in both FWD and RWD long before tracktions controlles....

  • Like 1

"I learn best through painful, expensive experience, so I feel like I've gotten my money's worth." MattL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to auto-x my old Dodge GLHS. A mid-80s FWD 170hp turbo-4 hatchback econobox, lighter than an 02, it was stiff, easy to rotate and too-eagerly ate front tires. (2sets/year)

 

Like others have said: Brake while staying on the throttle, pre-roll to set, and hit it — the FWD would pull madly through the turn, the boost kicking up.

 

It was less than 2200lbs, but front heavy, so to avoid the aforementioned plow, you’d almost dart-turn it -- straight braking late but less, and then twitching and cutting a bit harder to induce the rotation and weight shift to pull-steer out. It wasn’t as smooth to me as RWD, but it sure got around cones quick.

 

With that car, the trick was hitting the boost right - it would kick-in real hard and spin the little gumballs a bit too easily. With FWD when they’re spinning too fast, you’re going where you used to be pointing quickly...

 

I started left-foot braking then, and using a handbrake, and actively using pitch & roll to help maneuver better - and have ever since. 
 

Tom-too

  • Like 2

Where we goin’? … I’ll drive…
There are some who call me... Tom too         v i s i o n a u t i k s.com   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • BMW Neue Klasse - a birth of a Sports Sedan

    BMW Neue Klasse - a birth of a Sports Sedan

    Unveiling of the Neue Klasse Unveiled in 1961, BMW 1500 sedan was a revolutionary concept at the outset of the '60s. No tail fins or chrome fountains. Instead, what you got was understated and elegant, in a modern sense, exciting to drive as nearly any sports car, and yet still comfortable for four.   The elegant little sedan was an instant sensation. In the 1500, BMW not only found the long-term solution to its dire business straits but, more importantly, created an entirely new
    History of the BMW 2002 and the 02 Series

    History of the BMW 2002 and the 02 Series

    In 1966, BMW was practically unknown in the US unless you were a touring motorcycle enthusiast or had seen an Isetta given away on a quiz show.  BMW’s sales in the US that year were just 1253 cars.  Then BMW 1600-2 came to America’s shores, tripling US sales to 4564 the following year, boosted by favorable articles in the Buff Books. Car and Driver called it “the best $2500 sedan anywhere.”  Road & Track’s road test was equally enthusiastic.  Then, BMW took a cue from American manufacturers,
    The BMW 2002 Production Run

    The BMW 2002 Production Run

    BMW 02 series are like the original Volkswagen Beetles in one way (besides both being German classic cars)—throughout their long production, they all essentially look alike—at least to the uninitiated:  small, boxy, rear-wheel drive, two-door sedan.  Aficionados know better.   Not only were there three other body styles—none, unfortunately, exported to the US—but there were some significant visual and mechanical changes over their eleven-year production run.   I’ve extracted t
  • Upcoming Events

  • Supporting Vendors

×
×
  • Create New...