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Am I going to wreck my car?


Dudeland

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I am just chilling here on Canada Day, enjoying time with my family.   I am about to get access to my garage again, which means I have time, space,  tools and a couple ( two to be exact) of trusted professionals I have know for over 30 years  that can help me out for the more technical stuff. 

 

I have educated myself as much as I can over the last couple of years regarding well... everything I could.  From boost issues, compression ratios, pistons rods, bearing coatings, transmissions etc etc.  I have a respectable pile of parts, but nothing in regards to internals.  

 

One thing keeps bugging me, now that Ireland has a stroker kit,  do I really want to Turbo it?  I kinda want to get about 180 to 200 hp out of it. I can't cage it because I can't get insurance. Anything more than 200ish to the wheel and I am into a full rear frame from 02 underground (in my opinion).  Once you pull the trigger on that,  it is a race car in my opinion. 

 

I am not looking forward to trying to manage the heat and the tight engine compartment.   I will drop the subframe etc to get access to everything.  I really really really like the sounds a turbo makes, but NA seems more practical.  

 

I am just wondering what it to expect after I do all this.   Will i get in it and hate it?  Will all the boost come on in one big lump? I don't want to have a racecar for the street, I just want a quick (by modern standards) car that is good in the corners and can hold its own from light to light.   

 

Any thoughts to those who went down this path?  Would you do it again?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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"Goosed" 1975 BMW 2002

 

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When you start looking for more power to give more performance acceleration-wise, remember to keep things in balance WRT to handling and (especially) stopping.  

 

And in the search for lotsa horsepower, remember that a 2002 weighs over 500 lbs less than a Mini.  In fact, back in the day a roundie '02 weighed less than a contemporary MGB.  Increasing an '02 from its stock (in carbureted form) 100 or so hp to 150 is a 50% increase.  When you don't start with a lot of hp, it doesn't take very many more to make a noticeable difference.  My chipped E30 318is now is about 148 hp vs the original 134, and having owned a stock one before this one, even 14 more hp makes a noticeable difference.  And when I hot rodded my 28 hp Renault 4CV to 44 hp....wow, what a difference in a 1300 lb car.

 

Finally--do you want a fun-to-drive street car that you can occasionally track in a driving school, or a track rat that'll be a real PITA to drive on the street.  Your choice, but choose well, grasshopper; reversing is expensive!  The one word to remember:  balance.

 

keep us posted on your progress

 

mike

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'69 Nevada sunroof-Wolfgang-bought new
'73 Sahara sunroof-Ludwig-since '78
'91 Brillantrot 318is sunroof-Georg Friederich 
Fiat Topolini (Benito & Luigi), Renault 4CVs (Anatole, Lucky Pierre, Brigette) & Kermit, the Bugeye Sprite

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34 minutes ago, mike said:

When you start looking for more power to give more performance acceleration-wise, remember to keep things in balance WRT to handling and (especially) stopping.  

 

And in the search for lotsa horsepower, remember that a 2002 weighs over 500 lbs less than a Mini.  In fact, back in the day a roundie '02 weighed less than a contemporary MGB.  Increasing an '02 from its stock (in carbureted form) 100 or so hp to 150 is a 50% increase.  When you don't start with a lot of hp, it doesn't take very many more to make a noticeable difference.  My chipped E30 318is now is about 148 hp vs the original 134, and having owned a stock one before this one, even 14 more hp makes a noticeable difference.  And when I hot rodded my 28 hp Renault 4CV to 44 hp....wow, what a difference in a 1300 lb car.

 

Finally--do you want a fun-to-drive street car that you can occasionally track in a driving school, or a track rat that'll be a real PITA to drive on the street.  Your choice, but choose well, grasshopper; reversing is expensive!  The one word to remember:  balance.

 

keep us posted on your progress

 

mike

 

I feel so relieved to say what I said.  It has been bugging me for months, ever since I knew I was going to get my garage back.  

 

I think you nailed it, I am looking for ballance.  I reached out to the guy that posted the bags for the 02.  I didn't hear back, so if anyone can tell me where to get in touch, I would appreciate it.  Likely they are out of my budget, but still cool to have a chat.  

 

If given a choice , fun to street all day long.  Something that behaves at 60+mp.   The more I think about it, the more I think that I should focus on suspension.  My wheel/flair/spring program needs to be looked at,  Also I have new seats to install, so that will change the way it feels. 

 

.... I just ordered  a "Standard" sticker from Drivetribe. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Goosed" 1975 BMW 2002

 

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I've only driven one 02 turbo (not an original) with an e30 intake and an intercooler. Gobs of power in silly big rushes, not very useable unless you're a traffic light warrior, and a pain in the arse to keep on the boil in and out of corners. Got across country quicker, with a bigger grin on my face listening to a pair of 40s pump out 150bhp.

 

Currently building a stroker ?

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avaTour2.jpg.52fb4debc1ca18590681ac95bc6f527f.jpg

 

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The reality yes you would end up with an unruly beast that would have limited uses.

Adjustable boost with a sliding scale for octane is a good answer. I could drive mine home CA to Rhode Island on regular if I wanted and she would be that reliable. Not a brag just a reflection of lots of work and solid results.

 

My 2020 street 2002 would require a new front and rear sub frame for the mid engine front battery Tesla 3 parts.

You would have to fabricate a stiff chassis with some brake and suspension tuning luckily you have skills with the 02.

You could use an electric 02 for everything and I think that's what a successful street car is about.

s-l500.jpg

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I'll admit my bias up front: I'm not a fan of turbos, *especially* in 2002s.  Much of the beauty of the cars (for me) is in their simple straight-forwardness, easy maintenance, and spacious room in the engine bay for tinkering.  Granted I DID put EFI in mine, but that doesn't clutter up the engine bay any and while it does increase the complexity a bit, I'd argue that's completely offset by the increase in reliability. I don't think the same can be claimed for forced induction.  And while I'll agree a turbo is a pretty obvious route to MOAH POWER, I contend that 2002s don't really NEED that much more power to be great cars.  It's their light-weight, well-balanced, chuckability that make them so much fun, and a well sorted naturally aspirated M10 (with a good suspension) is just perfect for this.

Now, I'm also FULLY on board with anyone that enjoys modifying their own car to their own tastes, so if a high powered turbo engine (or electric conversion, or a small block V8, or whatever!) is what you want, then go for it, and I'll support you!

Oh, and one final thought, my track car is an E30 and while it's stock drivetrain is still fine for me and my purposes, I do think that an E30 would make a better base for a FI build than a 2002.

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My two cents, for what it's worth...  I'm riding an s14.  It's stock.  When I get to the ECU and intake it'll make about 15 or so more.  It's currently plenty quick enough up here at 5,000' elevation.  Could it be faster?  Sure.  But I'm running the full GC e30m3 coil-over kit with a ton of chassis stiffening, along with the full e30m3 brake set (requires 15" wheels.)  I'm currently on 15x8 with 205/55-15's.  And I've ordered the Massive Rallye brake kit for the car- 6 piston fronts, 4 piston rears, floating front rotors, and they only fit under a couple of 15" wheels and really should have 16's...

 

So my car seems to handle the hp it has just fine, but it has ALL the m3 bits, including the front and rear subframes, to hold everything together.

 

A hot rod motor in a stock-ish 2002, I'm betting, would make it a ton of fun.  Two hundred would probably be a lot.  One-fifty at the wheels?  That would probably be plenty.  The more capable you make the car, the higher the limits become, the faster you have to drive it to be close to the limit.  I just want to be close to the limit, so I try to make the limit attainable without being too stupid.  If 10 over in the canyon has you giggling like a school girl... you get to giggle all the time.  If you have to double the speed limit to make it interesting, it's pretty boring most of the time- and if you screw up at that point it's a real problem.

 

Could always ask @ray_, he has a big s14 and I think his car is mostly stock. @jimk has a stockish s14 in a stock car, I think it's ok for him, but I know he has a modern BMW as well, so he could probably speak to chassis flex in his 2002 with the big motor...

 

Final bit.  I've had a couple of cars with s54 motors, 320 hp ish, at the crank, from the factory, NA, stockish (e46, e86.)  They both were incredibly fun to drive, as long as no one else was around.  If there was traffic, I was frustrated by having to drive so far below the capabilities of the car.  Personally, I don't like being frustrated.  My current car, honestly it's probably making 140 at the tires up here?  If I drive it as a 'normal' person would, the flow of traffic will pull away from me, which is great as I don't feel like I'm being held up at all.  If I drive it with intent, then I can pull away from the normal flow of traffic.

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Dave.

'76, totally stock. Completely.

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Thanks and keep it coming. 

 

I am so onboard with something electric.  Quiet, killer torque, and for around town it makes sense.  No heat management, little maintenance. 

 

I think boost control is key.  Apparently the ceramic BB turbo that i had rebuilt spools quickly, but it is likely going to push a lot of boost, as the person who put the system together was shooting for 250 ish hp.   My only solace is that I have a lot of head room on what it could produce, and I likely won't have to push it to the limit. 

 

From all that I can read,  150-180 is all the chassis can really handle without going with a different program. This different program ,  to be safe (ish),  involves 5-10K in suspension, brakes and transmission to handle.   My gut tells me that it will not feel like the 02 I love, rather it will be a modern suspension under a wobbly chassis. 

 

Other than the standard subframe reinforcement, does anyone have any "chassis stiffening" ideas without having to put a cage in?

 

Edited by Dudeland

"Goosed" 1975 BMW 2002

 

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@Dudeland, give Patrick at Midnight Motorsports a call to discuss options and pros/cons of each. He's built them all and can walk you through the characteristics of the car you end up with each option. 

 

I recently went through this whole process in deciding which way to go with phase 2 of my restoration. I elected not to go with a turbo for the reasons @irdave mentions. I want to keep the limits and grin factor within reach more on a daily street driven basis and my target with my engine build will be 140-150hp to the wheels. 

 

Cheers, James 

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1987 Porsche 944 Turbo (sold)
1973 Mintgrun 2002 "Kermit" (sold)

1973 Inka 2002 "Ernie"

1986 VW Vanagon Syncro Weekender "Otto Van Gonzo"

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12 hours ago, Dudeland said:

 

 I don't want to have a racecar for the street, 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

200 HP? Too late.

 

After 30 years repairing aircraft engines, I view all turbos with suspicion.

Huge clouds of smoke billowing from the exhaust? Turbo

Failure to make rated power? Turbo

Low MAP? Turbo

Unable to achieve rated altitude? Turbo

Cabin pressurization inop? Turbo

Broken piston, able to shake hands with rod that punched through engine case? Turbo

My personal favorite:

Hole blown through engine cowl( in flight) by blowtorch like jet of flaming hot gas? Turbo

?

Edited by tech71
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76 2002 Survivor

71 2002 Franzi

85 318i  Doris

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1 hour ago, Dudeland said:

I am so onboard with something electric.  Quiet, killer torque, and for around town it makes sense.  No heat management, little maintenance.

Quick soapbox with initial disclaimer: I actually really, really like electric cars. Want one for our next car, probably not too far off.  But I think the 'no/low maintenance' claims for them are grossly overstated!  Sure a NEW car needs very little maintenance compared to an older car anyway, regardless of powerplant.  But what happens as they age?  Thinking on all the work I've done on my not-so-new-but-modern-ish cars in about the last year, here's the list, and I'll bold the ones that an electric car WOULDN'T need:

Oil changes

Window regulator

Door lock actuator

Cabin air filters

Timing belt

Seat adjustment tracks/motor

Stereo

Front suspension

Rear suspension

Transmission oil* (less frequent, but Teslas still have it!)

Coolant change (battery and power electronics still need it!)

Brakes

Pedal bushings

Door seals

Another front suspension job

Another stereo job

Chasing rattles. . .

 

An oil change is so little effort it hardly counts, so really the ONLY big maintenance savings I could expect to see in 6-8 years of ownership of an EV would seemingly be a timing belt change.  And even that goes away when compared to an IC engine with a timing chain. . . You may note I don't have spark plugs on the list.  I changed them in the 2002 this year, but not in any of the more modern cars.  Hell, the Odyssey only calls for a 105,000 mile replacement interval!

Again, not knocking EVs at all, still like 'em, but my experience tells me that the low maintenance claims are overhyped, as all new vehicles are super low maintenance anyway, and then all the same non-driveline stuff is still there, and will still break and cause the usual fixing-aggravation a few years down the road.

 

Also, I'm totally on board with ~150HP being the ideal power target for a 2002 :D

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Over the last 2 years I built my 68 resto-mod from the ground up. started with suspension, IE sway bars, Bilstein adj. coil overs, some poly, some rubber bushings and mounts as not to get vibration in drive train, Gertrag 245, 3.91 LSD, E21 Vented disc up front braking system including Master, Fully Balanced and blueprinted motor, Racetek forged 10:1 CR pistons . Ported head off race car, 292 cam which will shake some at idle of 900, If you bump to 1000 pretty much smooths out, dual dcoe italian 45's, Pertronix with flamethrower coil. To me I got what I wanted, A street, Track car that criuses at 80mph all day long, Plenty of low, Mid and high range torque and spins freely to 7500 and beyond.   I highly recomend the balancing of rotating mass, Motor so smooth, Cheap and well worth it

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It boils down to the question of what you really wish to do with the car as alluded to above. 

 

I have an Audi RS4 that has a shitload  (425 horses) of power packed into an an A4 body. It is my daily driver with monster power that wastes a lot of that either sucking gas while sitting in traffic or not reaching its max potential at the upper end. Oregon will torture you if you get caught going anything over 80 MPH. (Don't ask how I know). It is fun in the twists, but its a heavy car and Audi (much like like newBMW's) with driving controls have put a damper on that.....So the joys I have is how fast I can get up to speed while pulling onto the interstate or making some kid in a souped up rice rocket look like and idiot as he thinks he can take me at the light. ?

 

For me, the poor RS4 has very little use of its performance. Still a great car, love it to bits, but really can't use it a lot to its potential.  

 

A 2002 that has pretty much stock horsepower and has had its suspension redone. Spent a lot of time in the shop for various reasons but for me it provides a ton of grins when following the adage of "It's a lot of fun to drive a slow car fast". Doesn't suffer by sitting in traffic and the only time I sweat a bit is getting enough speed to merge on to the freeway,  when It can be a bit dicey. For me I will eventually look to get a little bit of lower end grunt (sync-link etc) to allow me to do that.  Great fun in the curves and tests my very limited driving skills. 

 

For Me...Looking for a crap load of horsepower can be your thing but I have it, and can't use it. For my 2002, I will eventually look for having some more lower end punch when I need it, rather than looking for upper end speed when I can't use it. Having the power to carve in and out of turns is a bit more fun than sitting in traffic with a monster of power that I can't use. 

 

my 2 cents. 

 

Cheers! 

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Loose: Not tightly bound. Subject to motion.
Lose: What happens when you are spell check dependent.

 

1975 Malaga. It is rusty and  springs an occasional leak.  Just like me. 

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4 hours ago, Teelinger said:

@Dudeland, give Patrick at Midnight Motorsports a call to discuss options and pros/cons of each. He's built them all and can walk you through the characteristics of the car you end up with each option. 

 

I recently went through this whole process in deciding which way to go with phase 2 of my restoration. I elected not to go with a turbo for the reasons @irdave mentions. I want to keep the limits and grin factor within reach more on a daily street driven basis and my target with my engine build will be 140-150hp to the wheels. 

 

Cheers, James 

I am wondering how much boost I need to make to get the same results.  I am not going bananas,  Freshen up the motor, bearings seals, some ARP studs, maybe,  pistons, rings, H beam rods,  I will get a better idea when I open it up.  What I planned on doing is getting 150-160 out of stock(ish) internals.  I am not going to put a million miles on it (at least that is my thoughts now).   I just got a little A4 for my daily, so it takes the pressure off of this thing.   

 

I would love to talk to Patric, but I would feel like I am stealing his knowledge.  Even if I wanted to have Patric do something for me, I can't because I will be on the other side of the country in less than a month.   if I were planted in Vancouver, and could go visit him, then I think I may have him put something together for me.   After all, building motors is how he makes his living. 

 

 

"Goosed" 1975 BMW 2002

 

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3 hours ago, tech71 said:

200 HP? Too late.

 

After 30 years repairing aircraft engines, I view all turbos with suspicion.

Huge clouds of smoke billowing from the exhaust? Turbo

Failure to make rated power? Turbo

Low MAP? Turbo

Unable to achieve rated altitude? Turbo

Cabin pressurization inop? Turbo

Broken piston, able to shake hands with rod that punched through engine case? Turbo

My personal favorite:

Hole blown through engine cowl( in flight) by blowtorch like jet of flaming hot gas? Turbo

?

I agree 200 HP I feel would be squirly at best.  150-160 ish is where I will start.   Although it is nice to have the headroom for track days if you want it. 

 

In terms of practicality of the turbo.  To me, the ship has sailed on the practicality of these cars, largely based on the fact that we are putting money into 40 + year old small european cars, unsafe by modern standards, and increasing the power by 50%.  To me, all that a Turbo means is that you blow up your stuff faster. 

 

 

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"Goosed" 1975 BMW 2002

 

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