Front clip question

[Mike A]

... other than the snorkel, what additional identifying feature might be found on a replacement clip that may have had the snorkel removed?  Tia, mike 

[TobyB]

Just the way it's attached.

 

If it has the original spot welds and 

2 very hard HeliArc(tm) welds to the front frame rails,

it's original.

 

Given when in the process the nose panel was attached,

it's not possible to re- created the spot welds without assembling the

nose on the car.  Which no- one does.

 

t

 

[Conserv]

None, Mike, if you’re solely speaking to the nosepiece unit (front valance + radiator support + the “cap“ that joins the valance and support). The “giveaways” are often the manner in which the nosepiece is attached to the front ends of the inner fenders, e.g., spot welds, trying to “tidy up” the factory top lip that laps over the inner fender by backfilling with body putty.

 

A new nosepiece, done correctly, is virtually undetectable. I had a lapse in (driving) judgement in 1978 with my '76 — OK, yes, one of many -- requiring a new nosepiece and right fender. A good body shop replaced them and the replacement is almost undetectable — except I tell people. My tii had a new nosepiece long ago, but it was a tii nosepiece, sans snorkel. A dead giveaway is that there’s no Inka paint under the ‘80’s Malaga re-paint, as the rest of the car has. Black primer on a piece, as the base primer over metal, is also an obvious telltale that it is a replacement part.

Everyone focuses on tii’s, because the snorkel is such an obvious feature. But, trust me, we wrecked carbed ‘02’s with equal gusto! I firmly believe well over half of all nosepieces have been swapped: replacement was often cheaper than paying a good bodyman to restore the compound curves of a bent original nosepiece. If you could even find a good bodyman! My ‘76 was completely drivable after its shunt. I didn’t need a new radiator or anything within the engine compartment, but the thin valance was both dented and torn.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Conserv

[RogerRamJet77]

If memory serves, early cars (like my 1970) had the S/N stamped on the top of the nose.

[Conserv]

1 hour ago, rockyford77 said:

If memory serves, early cars (like my 1970) had the S/N stamped on the top of the nose.

I’m still at a loss on this particular issue: I’ve seen 4 or 5-digit numbers stamped into the left upper end of the nosepiece cap, but I’ve not yet been able to trace any of these numbers to the car’s 7-digit VIN.

 

Similarly, many cars have 4 or 5-digit numbers stamped into the top edge of the rear seat’s front support. But again, I’ve not yet been able to trace any of these numbers to the car’s 7-digit VIN.

 

I’ve also considered whether the stamped numbers represent dates, but I’ve been unable to make that work...

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Conserv

[TobyB]

Quote

A new nosepiece, done correctly, is virtually undetectable.

 

It is, Steve. 

 

As I posted, there are quite a few places it's impossible to replicate

without assembling it as the factory did.

 

Easiest to spot on your car is the lack of dimpled spot welds where the nose joins the inner fenders.

 

t

 

[Conserv]

On 6/24/2020 at 4:36 PM, TobyB said:

 

It is, Steve. 

 

As I posted, there are quite a few places it's impossible to replicate

without assembling it as the factory did.

 

Easiest to spot on your car is the lack of dimpled spot welds where the nose joins the inner fenders.

 

t

 

100% agreed! And good bodymen, and painters, have a tough time stooping to the level of a true factory finish. They attempt to hide — smooth over — all evidence of the construction methods...

 

One high-quality re-paint and any surviving spot welds are history!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Conserv

[TobyB]

Good point.

 

I have fallen victim to that many times over the years...

 

The factory quality's never what you'd really like...

 

t

[Mike A]

And then of course there is always the disreputable dealer who claims it is all original....once I could inspect it I could detect that it had been replaced ... the snorkel removal was backyard quality but whoever did the respray dressed it up to a 10 footer finish. The welds to the frame rail were pure garbage . Took a bit of work to grind them off and was not knowledgeable enough to know what it should look like. I used a mig  not stick

Edited June 26, 2020 by Mike A

[Conserv]

The following are my thoughts, directed not towards Mike, but towards the larger ‘02 audience.

 

We bought these cars because they were sporty. We drove them hard. We wrecked them... a lot.
 

I was a kid in 1973, and I could afford my first ‘02, an otherwise mint condition ‘70 with 20K miles, because the left front corner was wrecked, requiring a hood, a fender, and... a nosepiece. I totaled the car in 1974. I bought and parted a totaled ‘72 tii in 1974 (28K miles) and a totaled 74 2002A in 1975 (18K miles). My ‘76 got a new nosepiece in 1978, as I’ve recounted too many times to this patient forum. Even my ‘73 tii has a new nosepiece, although it happens to be a tii nosepiece — no evidence of a snorkelectomy and apparently replaced in the 1980’s, before anyone gave a rat’s ass about “snorkels”.

 

When I wrecked the ‘76 in 1978, the car was completely driveable, although the right end of the nosepiece and the right fender were mangled. I drove it to the body shop for it’s repair. They fixed it, saying they had replaced the nosepiece. Let me just say, I was happy that they replaced the nosepiece. I was a total car guy, and I, unambiguously, preferred a new nosepiece to a repaired nosepiece. When you have a two-year-old car with damage, most people prefer a new part over a repaired original. I guarantee that hundreds of nosepieces were replaced for people who neither cared nor ever asked whether the nosepiece was replaced. The insurance company paid the bill and life moved on. Do you actually believe these people, who didn’t even know or care whether they had a new nosepiece, explained to the subsequent owner that their car “might have had a new nosepiece”? Bonus points if you answered “Not a remote possibility”. We bought these cars to drive for 5 years, not to own when they were 50-years-old.

 

My point? My starting position when examining any ‘02 is the assumption that the nosepiece has been replaced over the last 50 years. Unless you’ve had in-depth discussions directly with each owner of your car, addressing the nosepiece in particular, assume the current owner does not have a clue whether this or that body panel has been replaced. If the car’s been re-painted, all bets may be off as to whether the most experienced ‘02 specialist can tell. And, of course, the number of brand new BMW’s damaged in transit and (quietly) repaired was shocking, revealed by a court case in the late 1970’s regarding a new Five Series that was pretty much totaled in transit, but was repaired and re-painted, and sold new by BMW without disclosure. So there’s that, too!
 

If your tii has a snorkel, de-snorkel it with the next re-paint. If your 2002 is missing a snorkel — yeah, there are a few of these kicking around, and they’re not ti’s — re-snorkel it with the next re-paint. Either way, you’ve just headed off 95% of “the discussion”. Don’t try to make your car’s nosepiece a work of art that merges seemlessly into the inner fenders. The factory sure as hell didn’t. You’ve just headed off another 4% of “the discussion.“

It didn’t take much of a hit to warrant a new nosepiece. If your goal is to evaluate the integrity of an ‘02 as a whole, focus your efforts on finding wrinkles in inner fenders, in front frame rails, in inner rocker panels, in floor panels, in trunk floor reinforcements, in quarter panels. Why does that door fit so poorly? That’s evidence. Front fenders and nosepieces? They were virtual maintenance items...

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Conserv

[Mike A]

^^^Yeah, what Steve says. When I bought the car from the asshat dealer I had no idea that the snorkel issue had any importance and since then have come to believe that it isn’t for anything less than a museum sample.

 Analogous to replacing a right rear quarter on my 72 911, the only year that oil was filled through a flap behind the passenger side door. If you bought a replacement panel it came without the flap door and opening mechanism... you had to cut and save the original 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Mike A

[Conserv]

11 minutes ago, Mike A said:

^^^Yeah, what Steve says. When I bought the car from the asshat dealer I had no idea that it had any importance and since then have come to believe that it isn’t for anything less than a museum sample. 

And I have some vague recollection that the new “1972 tii” built by BMW in 2004-ish, and in the BMW museum (Zentrum?), was de-snorkeled as part of the build... ???

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Conserv

[Mike A]

11 minutes ago, Conserv said:

And I have some vague recollection that the new “1972 tii” built by BMW in 2004-ish, and in the BMW museum (Zentrum?), was de-snorkeled as part of the build... ???

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

You’d think BMW would have enough resources to find and relieve a private owner of his real , authentic sample 

[Conserv]

31 minutes ago, Mike A said:

 

... Analogous to replacing a right rear quarter on my 72 911, the only year that oil was filled through a flap behind the passenger side door....

 

One year only because, allegedly, far too many people used that flap to fill their crankcase with high test. I would love to know how many times that happened... ?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

[Mike A]

Somewhat of a myth Steve... even though there were 2 “oil only “decals in the flap door and on the cap , no doubt a few morons put 93 octane in it ....but the the official reason it was redesigned was new NHTSA safety regulations having to do with side impact. The 72 continues to be one of the most sought after modem year. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Mike A