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Johnny Riviera

Bav Auto springs vs IE Stage II

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(edited)

Hello all,

 

Did some searching, couldn't find a good answer. I have Bav Auto with Billy Sports now, Still have a bit more body roll autocrossing than I'd like. Are the stage II's stiffer? More linear? Ride quality is not my prime objective.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

John

Edited by Johnny Riviera
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IE bars. I can go a little stiffer on adjustment, but was told by others here that springs were going to help more than adjustment of bar. I was told that was more for fine tuning balance and under/oversteer. I'm in the middle hole on the front bar now I am far from an expert on suspension, but always looking to learn.

 

Thank you,

 

John

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What are the front and sway bar diameters?  Also, urethane sway bar bushings make the bars responsive more rapidly than do rubber bushings--inexpensive and easy to install.  

 

mike

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(edited)

Given you already are running the IE swaybars…….. the IE stg.2 springs are a fair amount stiffer than the bavauto springs.  For autocross, try putting the rear bar at it's least stiff setting, and the front at it's most stiff setting (if you are experimenting).

Edited by AceAndrew

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There are different iterations of Ireland's bars- the one that relocates the front pivot point is quite stiff.

 

So here's another (somewhat different) schpiel on springs vs. anti- sway bars:

since the bar is just another spring, it adds spring rate only in roll.

 

IF you have quite soft springs and a stiff bar, it'll add, relatively, quite a bit of

rate, and thus, roll resistance.  Frustratingly, it's not trivial to measure the 

effective wheel rate of a bar, and thus, I've never seen anyone publish a rate for

the 2002 bars in any form.

 

But if you already have #400 lb/in front springs, (which you don't) a bar needs to be QUITE stiff to add much 

rate to that- if it's not adding #100 or more to the wheel, it's not going to drastically

change body roll.  What it DOES do is transfer load between the 2 wheels, unloading the inside one-

thus the tuning factor... as more weight transfer results in (somewhat) less grip.

 

Aha- "weight transfer results in somewhat less grip".  So, all things being equal (which they aren't)

you only want to limit roll when it's causing other problems, like messing up your

contact patch, bottoming suspension, etc.  

 

heh.

 

t

runs the Ireland front bar with relocated pivots.

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Thanks for the info! My bar is the one with a different pivot point than stock. Roll does seem to be upsetting my contact patch, looking at the wear on my tires. I know camber correction would help as my car is already a bit lowered. I have fixed camber plates, but to go with adjustable plates it seems a smaller diameter spring would be in order to take advantage. That means coilovers which currently are not in the budget. My thinking is limiting body roll would mean less suspension travel, therefore less camber change. Also less weight transferred onto outer front wheel in turns. 

 

Is any of that sound reasoning?

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Yeah, the 2002 loves to run on the outside 2" of a modern radial, doesn't it?

 

You could try the spacers that move the lower pivot point of the front suspension out and down,

if you have a little fender room.  They aren't too expensive, don't push you to coilovers,

and do several good things, including lowering the front ball joint.  They don't affect bump steer-

which is good, as the 2002 doesn't really have much.  They DO improve roll center position,

which DOES help weight transfer a bit.

Also, if you later go to coilovers, you can leave them in, as they're a good companion to them.

I used Bavaria front lower arms, for roughly the same effect, but they also move the 

tire forward if you use the 2002 'tension rod'.  Good for caster, bad for wheel clearance.

 

Less body roll helps camber, BUT weight transfer will stay pretty much the same- think about it,

if you're cornering at .8g, you're pretty heavily on the outside tires anyway, and only roll center movement

affects that much (see above, lower ball joint spacers).  Roll WILL affect the relative loading front-

to- rear, if your suspension has different roll rates and centers, which the 2002 certainly does.

 

Short version?  See if you can find those spacers as an option.  They're sometimes called 'bump steer correctors',

which they don't do on our cars.

 

hth

 

t

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I’ve seen them. I was under the impression that I couldn’t run them with 13” wheels.......and I love the look of my 13x6’s with 205/60 Toyo RA-1’s. I have thought of the Bavaria arms. I’ve read that running the Bavaria tension arms fix the wheel placement. 

 

Is your underlying thought that changing to the stage II springs wouldn’t help much?

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13 hours ago, Johnny Riviera said:

Hello all,

 

Did some searching, couldn't find a good answer. I have Bav Auto with Billy Sports now, Still have a bit more body roll autocrossing than I'd like. Are the stage II's stiffer? More linear? Ride quality is not my prime objective.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

John

 

I have run both. IE stage 2 was significantly stiffer than the BAV Auto springs. It was most noticeable in the rear. BAV rear springs would squat quite a bit, while the IE rear springs provided much better support.

 

Not sure if this matters to you, but ride height with the IE springs will be quite a bit higher than the BAV springs. An inch or so, maybe? 

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(edited)

I do like the current ride height, so yes that would matter. I thought I saw a pic of Blunt’s car with the springs, and thought it sat similar, maybe a touch lower in front. Perhaps he lopped off a bit of spring. I don’t want the car to sit higher, so maybe I should look more at camber and roll center mods. Or maybe I just need to bite the bullet on coilovers. 

 

Below is a a pic of me with a fair amount of lean. I can also see it riding on the outside of the driver front. 

012687FA-EA63-4143-BBDF-79B71D2BE09D.jpeg

Edited by Johnny Riviera
Typo

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23 hours ago, Johnny Riviera said:

I’ve seen them. I was under the impression that I couldn’t run them with 13” wheels.......and I love the look of my 13x6’s with 205/60 Toyo RA-1’s. I have thought of the Bavaria arms. I’ve read that running the Bavaria tension arms fix the wheel placement. 

 

Is your underlying thought that changing to the stage II springs wouldn’t help much?

 

Yeah, you're right, there's not enough room with 13" wheels.  And the price of 13" Toyos is nice, too, I agree.

 

I never tried the Bav tension arms, tho I do have a set around here somewhere... probably unlabelled...

I remember they were quite a bit longer, but not HOW much longer.  I DID run the

Bav lower arms with 13x7 Panasports, but those had 0 offset, and banged into the nose panel..

 

You could certainly TRY the stiffer springs.  It's just that, with stock suspension, as you get into it,

it only takes a few different sets of springs before you're up to the cost of a coilover setup, and once you go

that direction, adjustability gets so much easier.  But it also may reclass you.

 

t

 

 

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Oh, I have no class!

 

I run with a local group (Bridge City Autosports) and mainly run in their NFP not for points class, mainly for my own enjoyment and to show vintage iron can still get it done. I’d love to run a SCCA HCS or HCR (Heritage Classic Street and Race) but nobody seems to run those classes. I would love to see more old iron autocrossing, but the times I’ve posted or mentioned to friends, I have received little interest. 

 

That said, next weekend I am planning to go out to one one McMinneville Oregon if anyone is interested. 

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It's hard to tell which is better without having numbers. If you know spring rates for the springs, you can tell which direction you want to go. So best thing is to measure or ask the manufacturer for the actual rate. If they do not tell you, they do not know :) . Or manufacturing process is not good enough to produce consistency on the spring. 

 

Sway bar is a spring that is only activated during the load transfer from side to side. The spring rate for those is easy also easy to calculate :)

 

Steve K.

 

Picture of the "big enough sway bar for autocross" :)

 

 

 

 

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Quote

Sway bar is a spring that is only activated during the load transfer from side to side. The spring rate for those is easy also easy to calculate

Yup, it's not too bad.  But the wheel rate is harder to calculate...

 

t

 

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