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K-Fisch rebuild time

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My injection system has been at one of the usually noted rebuild servicers. The general inference was the rebuild would take a few months. It has been 10 months.

I delivered the system at the end of September. I called in mid December to budget against the Holidays. I then called in February, April, June and today.

The rebuild is not yet complete, there is no stated completion time estimate from the vendor. 

Is this a typical and expected process from those who have had there injection systems rebuilt?

please offer experience and consolations!

Daron

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My Turbo pump has been over 3 years; but then I don't need it yet.

 

generally, almost a year, so I have spares both Turbo and Tii.

 

perfection has it prices.

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Mine took 2.5 weeks from Fairchild but didn't get bead blasted and new CAD plated hardware so it looks period used.

 

It works great and cost less without the additional Bling Factor but your restoration may need more

 

IMG_0513.thumb.JPG.80736f5d445c9ce79971aee066640c29.JPG

 

 

 

 

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And now I can see how simple and easy it is to have a single Webber 

you can buy a new one and put it with your travel spares  

couple hundred bucks 

ive drove from Florida to Alaska on a carb and never had problems 

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I sometimes wonder if a good flush with MMO for the bottom end and injection cleaner on the top end is sufficient for pumps that are not leaking.  

 

Tell me I'm wrong but it seems that the rebuilders only dismantle, clean, reassemble and then calibrate the pump using the verboten screw to set the volume of fuel used at different rpms.

 

With the proliferation of AFR equipment we can deduce the optimum fuel requirement ourselves. 

 

I'm thinking that only pumps that need new gaskets or pumps that have sat unused for years need to be dismantled.

 

Back on topic.   My last 2 rebuilds took 90 days at Wes Ingrams shop. They sure were pretty when I got them back. 

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https://www.ebay.com/itm/kugelfischer-pl04-kit-joints-bmw2002-tii-turbo-Fiat-131-Abarth/113292895920?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648

 

This is the kit I bought to do mine- sold before I got around to it.  I do have it here still (I believe) and would be happy to sell it if someone was interested.  I've got the injection pressure pump tool thing, too, with a more appropriate pressure gauge that I'd sell as well.

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(edited)
On 7/2/2019 at 12:37 AM, PaulTWinterton said:

sometimes wonder if a good flush with MMO for the bottom end and injection cleaner on the top end is sufficient for pumps that are not leaking.  

 

Tell me I'm wrong but it seems that the rebuilders only dismantle, clean, reassemble and then calibrate the pump using the verboten screw to set the volume of fuel used at different rpms.

Ted might not agree that "it's as simple as that", but as Paul says, and per Wes Ingram, the pump is on one hand bullet-proof, on the other like a Swiss watch.  They take them apart, clean them, blast the exterior surfaces,and anodize the hardware, but they don't really touch the innards.   They measure fuel output for each of four throttle positions @ x,xxx RPMs over fixed periods of time (or revolutions) and adjust the verboten screw for fuel flow.  But there is just one screw, and four throttle positions, so the adjustment is set for a "range" of output.

 

Perhaps a shop like Precision(?) actually does a more detailed test of fuel flow at multiple fixed RPMs over time at each of the four throttle positions to better document the flow over the arc of different throttle/load/RPM situations, but unless they mill the cone to get a specific response at different throttle settings, "it is what it is".  It would be worth it (to me) to pay a shop to confirm that if they would.  I tried four - two in Europe and two in the US; none would.

 

I am a guppy in this big Sea of Kugelfisch, but logic tells me that if the pump is clean and the suction valves are clean, the pump can be relied upon to perform as designed.  Therefore, one of the big determinants would be that the injectors are opening within a tight tolerance of their intended setting of 35 bar (~500PSI).

It would be worth it (to me) to pay a shop to confirm that output over load/RPM vs Time, but most of them don't do it.  They (mostly) all do test and adjust the injectors, and I think that is key, and relatively cheap.

 

Last year was a litany of catastrophic failure modes that I blamed on the pump, but in retrospect, I have to chalk most of it up to me using too thin a wire on the fuel pump (thereby starving the pump of current when it warmed up and lost efficiency), and a couple of other things that confused the failure mode.  By the time I figured all of that out, my new, calibrated pump was in place, and it was relatively easy and predictable to set up.

 

I now have a spare (my old, used) pump on my shelf, and I am tempted to order one of these gasket kits, dust off Rob Siegel's "What I Learned Pulling the Head Off the Kugelfischer Pump" article and give it a go. 

I think it would be an educational experience, but I'll wait for the winter non-driving season!.   

 

Edited by Swiss 2002Tii
additional info
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17 hours ago, Swiss 2002Tii said:

But there is just one screw, and four throttle positions, so the adjustment is set for a "range" of output.

 

Perhaps a shop like Precision(?) actually does a more detailed test of fuel flow at multiple fixed RPMs over time at each of the four throttle positions to better document the flow over the arc of different throttle/load/RPM situations, but unless they mill the cone to get a specific response at different throttle settings, "it is what it is".  It would be worth it (to me) to pay a shop to confirm that if they would.


From Precision Automotive Research technical paper:

"The fuel output curves may be ,shifted left or right

raised or lowered (the "screw") and even bent to suit the fuel requirements
of any engine
.
(my emphasis) The exact shape of the fuel output
curve will vary depending on the type of engine and its airflow
(breathing) characteristics. It is determined by the
contour of the fuel control cam and cannot be radically altered
but can be changed by internal adjustments (my emphasis again) or replacement
with a different design fuel control cam."

 

So in my mind, cleaning and resealing is not a rebuild.

 

Precision also has a way to repair the micro cracks in the pistons in needed, which are loooong NLA and will affect the output of the pump despite new seals. They too have made new internal springs for the injectors and seats for the pintles.

 

And yes, Precision does adjust and provides you with a complete data set of each P curve..

 

Incidentally, the Turbo pump does not only use direct RPM / Butterfly as its only parameter, but also considers vacuum / boost at any particular RPM / Load to determine the fuel required, with the altitude compensator as a part of tuning the pump.

 

I spoke to Dave yesterday and he is aware of the backlog, but (in my mind) this is not their primary business. They are knee deep in consulting to owners of  Porsche race cars (and Porsche too) how to optimize their braking systems for this race season.

 

As an aside, does anyone know where you can get new injectors or if there is a cross reference to another similar car, e.g. Alfa?

 

HTH,

 

Ted

 

 

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1 hour ago, Einspritz said:

As an aside, does anyone know where you can get new injectors or if there is a cross reference to another similar car, e.g. Alfa?

 

Wouldn't that be nice.

 

 

23 hours ago, JsnPpp said:

but this looks to be the same, only with bearings:

 

Nice find.  I have a spare pump on my bench that wants to be dismantled.  I might follow @Swiss 2002Tiiand take it apart next winter.  For 100 bucks it's worth buying that kit, I think.

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It's too bad that Kugelfischer never set out a standard test in their manual, else we could chase rebuilders to follow it.

I spent a lot of money to get a pump reconditioned, shipped, import duties paid, etc. It added at least $500 to the cost compared to getting it done in the US (that's just the price of entry for living in a country like a National Park).  The result was good, as it has performed very well, but I sure would have liked to have had an output curve as Ted has shared in the past.

 

I went ahead and ordered the kit ($100, free shipping, even to Switzerland, what a deal!)  I'm looking forward to taking that rascal apart and seeing how the innards play together.

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I had about a 15 day turnaround on my pump when I sent it to Jerry Fairchild.  

 

Daron, if you have a plasma cutter, we need to talk.

 

 

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