NOT-rebodied 74 tii on BAT

[Conserv]

38 minutes ago, conkitchen said:

 WORD OF CAUTION HERE: While you did ask for it. I cannot personally vouch for this image however it was provided to me by a trustworthy source.  If this is in fact from said car in question then the strange appearance of a linear crease in said metal evident by light cast onto thick paint of same blue color as said car makes me wonder.  

 

I think J.R. was shot by Maggie Simpson or was that Tabitha Stevens? 

 

 

 

Very interesting, no doubt! ?

 

Unless it’s just bad painting and was created when they painted the car once without removing the rubber seals that close the ends of the plenum chamber. Of course, I also don’t see “2780517” at all... ?

 

I’d really like to take my orbital sander to that inner fender!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Conserv

[ray_]

2 hours ago, Conserv said:

 

Did you remove the rear seat and look under it? Did you remove one or more underdash cover panels and look above them?

 

And, as a guy who never figured out who shot J.R., you advanced conspiracy theorists need to help little ol’ me on this steering column piece....

 

I thought that square taillight cars had plastic bottom sections to their steering column clamshells, along with a top pad and a bottom pad. Because no U.S.-spec square taillights had a manual choke — the two-barrel Solex had an automatic choke  and the tii had no choke — the plastic clamshells had no cut-outs for a choke (first photo, of my ‘76). But the metal bottom sections used on round taillights had a cut-out for a manual choke with a black rubber plug for cars without manual chokes — e.g., tii’s and carbed cars having two-barrel Solexes. So this car has a bottom section from a round taillight, which proves what?

 

And, oh, here’s a photo of the fuel pump and accumulator on my ‘73 tii, which, if I were to replace it with a non-original fuel pump and no accumulator, would conclusively prove that my car, too, has been re-bodied.... ????

 

The only thing I’ve seen thus far that I find particularly suspicious is the lack of a photo of the chassis VIN stamped into the right front fender.... ?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Steven,

 

A proper* tii bottom clamshell has no plug, like mine shown below.

 

Cheers,

[conkitchen]

4 hours ago, Conserv said:

 

Did you remove the rear seat and look under it? Did you remove one or more underdash cover panels and look above them?

 

And, as a guy who never figured out who shot J.R., you advanced conspiracy theorists need to help little ol’ me on this steering column piece....

 

I thought that square taillight cars had plastic bottom sections to their steering column clamshells, along with a top pad and a bottom pad. Because no U.S.-spec square taillights had a manual choke — the two-barrel Solex had an automatic choke  and the tii had no choke — the plastic clamshells had no cut-outs for a choke (first photo, of my ‘76). But the metal bottom sections used on round taillights had a cut-out for a manual choke with a black rubber plug for cars without manual chokes — e.g., tii’s and carbed cars having two-barrel Solexes. So this car has a bottom section from a round taillight, which proves what?

 

And, oh, here’s a photo of the fuel pump and accumulator on my ‘73 tii, which, if I were to replace it with a non-original fuel pump and no accumulator, would conclusively prove that my car, too, has been re-bodied.... ????

 

The only thing I’ve seen thus far that I find particularly suspicious is the lack of a photo of the chassis VIN stamped into the right front fender.... ?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Steve, 

I know I may be kicking a dead horse here, but if you look at your undercarriage image, Tii's had large loops welded to the chassis to hold the fuel line into the accumulator as shown. The said vehicle in question does not appear to have them in the same location as a tii.  

 

 

 

 

I know the image is dark, but was that intentional?  All the little things just don't add up. Sure it has a notch (as bad as it is) but it also has a snorkel, then there are air cleaner brackets, but the fuel accumulator is missing when it did appear in one image. The thermo time module screw as minor a detail as it is too appears incorrect. While it has boxed trailing arms-let's face it you can put those on any non tii subframe, The fuel pump electrical wires route through a caulked up hole and not a flared end tube.  Wrong seats, pre 74 speedo, and a manual choke column bits are common replacement when just throwing a car together for resale.  This car needs a hands on viewing for any serious buyer. I hope I have given some insight as to what to look for. 

 

I photo enhanced the lighting of the above, you decide. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by conkitchen

[Conserv]

52 minutes ago, ray_ said:

Steven,

 

A proper* tii bottom clamshell has no plug, like mine shown below.

 

Cheers,

 

I believe the car under discussion has a U.S. square taillight chassis: note front nosepiece and big bumpers, relay rack on left front inner fender, square taillights, big rear bumpers and full crash reinforcements in trunk. But the lower section of the steering column clamshell (with plug) is off a round taillight car. Why do I believe that? Because all U.S. square taillight cars — see my ‘76 below — are just like your “tii”: no plugs anywhere. The presence of a round taillight lower section proves only that the lower section is not original to this square taillight car. But we’ve already seen that the spare rim is from a round taillight, the back seat is from a round taillight, etc.

 

Or are you suggesting that the “original” car was a round taillight chassis and the “re-bodiers” were so dedicated to their re-bodying efforts that they not only added every tii feature, but also effectively converted a round taillight chassis into a square taillight chassis, by adding all the square taillight features and modifications, including all the DOT-mandated modifications? ?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

[ray_]

Or am I just giving you a hard time because I wasn't aware that squarelight tii's have clamshells with plugs? 

 

...BTW I was wrong about the VIN being on my rear seat ledge. I finally looked again. It's not the VIN. Doh!

 

Cheers,

[Conserv]

6 hours ago, conkitchen said:

 

Steve, 

I know I may be kicking a dead horse here, but if you look at your undercarriage image, Tii's had large loops welded to the chassis to hold the fuel line into the accumulator as shown. The said vehicle in question does not appear to have them in the same location as a tii.  

 

 

 

 

I know the image is dark, but was that intentional?  All the little things just don't add up. Sure it has a notch (as bad as it is) but it also has a snorkel, then there are air cleaner brackets, but the fuel accumulator is missing when it did appear in one image. The thermo time module screw as minor a detail as it is too appears incorrect. While it has boxed trailing arms-let's face it you can put those on any non tii subframe, The fuel pump electrical wires route through a caulked up hole and not a flared end tube.  Wrong seats, pre 74 speedo, and a manual choke column bits are common replacement when just throwing a car together for resale.  This car needs a hands on viewing for any serious buyer. I hope I have given some insight as to what to look for. 

 

I photo enhanced the lighting of the above, you decide. 

 

I think you’re really stretching to find what you want to find, which is why I keep pushing back! ? Saying they swapped over the fuel line loops but got them in slightly wrong positions isn’t convincing me of anything. ? Have you looked at hundreds of these loops and found them to be 100% consistent? Probably not.

 

Like the notch, the judgement required on these minor discrepancies is simply too subjective. Case in point: the wheel fitment for ‘02 A does not match the wheel fitment for ‘02 B. Why not? Because there were differences among cars when they were new and those differences were multiplied and magnified as cars aged, were repaired, were modified.

 

I would return to my first statement: show me the chassis VIN stamped into the outer edge of the right front inner fender. Your photo could certainly not be read as “2780517”, so either (a.) they never bothered to swap the chassis VIN’s — in which case, yes sir, I’m fully convinced there has been a re-bodying — or (b.) the photo is of the wrong car. ?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Conserv

[NYNick]

I'm with Steve on this one. The stamped VIN on the right inner fender is very hard to duplicate or replace. Let's see that picture, loud and clear.

 

I purposely taped over the primer on mine before final paint exactly for this reason. Clarity!

[kbmb02]

1 hour ago, NYNick said:

The stamped VIN on the right inner fender is very hard to duplicate or replace.

 

There are at least 2 different 'treatments' of the VIN area underside, what I'd describe as a single layer and double layer. That said, replacement can - and has - been done. I looked at a car a few months ago which the area around the stamped VIN had been swapped (not at all evident from the top, but the weld was evident when running fingers on the underside). -KB

[JsnPpp]

Fun conversation and informative on the nuances of differences b/w Tii and carb'd cars. Love this depth!

 

I believe the car is not rebodied, but if I was in doubt and thinking of purchasing to be sure I'd look under the passenger fender and see for welding residue if the stamped VIN was swapped. That would tell all...

 

~Jason

[02Les]

Bearing in mind this car was repainted in it's present dark shade back in the '80s. And, as the current Seller has had the car only 8 months, IF, anything dodgy was done to this car, it's unlikely to have been done by the current Seller.

 

Maybe the Statute of Limitations should apply here.

[conkitchen]

5 hours ago, NYNick said:

I'm with Steve on this one. The stamped VIN on the right inner fender is very hard to duplicate or replace. Let's see that picture, loud and clear.

 

I purposely taped over the primer on mine before final paint exactly for this reason. Clarity!

 

I'm beginning to see how science and religion respond to each others claims. If only plausible I will deny it. If its unproven fact I still wanna believe. 

 

 

[Inka’d02]

I own this car and I am just seeing this now. The car is not re bodied....The steering cover had a hole drilled in it for a fog lamp switch and the fuel accumulator leaked so I replaced it with a standard bosch fuel pump. There is no false representation here. 

 

This said in the future it would be better to ask the seller directly on BAT instead of starting a 3 page thread that said seller has no idea about and hurts the sale of the car. 

 

[Conserv]

10 hours ago, Inka’d02 said:

I own this car and I am just seeing this now. The car is not re bodied....The steering cover had a hole drilled in it for a fog lamp switch and the fuel accumulator leaked so I replaced it with a standard bosch fuel pump. There is no false representation here. 

 

This said in the future it would be better to ask the seller directly on BAT instead of starting a 3 page thread that said seller has no idea about and hurts the sale of the car. 

 

 

Your points are good, and I’ve not been convinced it was re-bodied.

 

But... I will also add that, unless you have been the owner of a car since new, there may be history in a car’s past of which you, even as a conscientious and long-term owner, cannot be aware.  I have seen examples of clearly re-bodied cars — perhaps we should call them “re-VIN’d” — of which current owners were entirely unaware.  Few owners of cars compare all their car’s various VIN stamps to evaluate consistency: I generally didn’t until 15-20 years ago, when the cars I was examining were suddenly becoming collectible classics.

 

There have been 2002 examples on this forum where the VIN number stamped into the outer edge of the right inner fender did not match the VIN on the riveted-on VIN tag on the right inner fender. And no one noticed — sometimes for decades — until a few people started talking about VIN tags, matching numbers, and the like.

 

Good luck with your sale.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by Conserv

[Simeon]

On 7/1/2019 at 4:42 PM, conkitchen said:

This might be conjecture on my part, but if the original fuel accumulator was there, why remove it? Plus it appears to me that it is hanging a lil too low in this pic. It should tuck up behind the CV IMHO.  As for VIN stamping. There is not one image which that part of the car is not in frame with the provided photos.  At least we have a face shot of the guy in question. That is all. 

 

 

 

Could it be the combo of a replacement, more modern, in-line pump with a canister fuel filter? Definitely not original but not quite a smoking gun as a few tii owners have done similar. 

 

Does a ‘74 have those ‘fillets’ in the corners of the tank opening?

[M3M3]

3 hours ago, Inka’d02 said:

I own this car and I am just seeing this now. The car is not re bodied....The steering cover had a hole drilled in it for a fog lamp switch and the fuel accumulator leaked so I replaced it with a standard bosch fuel pump. There is no false representation here. 

 

This said in the future it would be better to ask the seller directly on BAT instead of starting a 3 page thread that said seller has no idea about and hurts the sale of the car. 

 

You really need to post a CLEAR picture of the stamped VIN........