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123 blue tooth tuning

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First off I have searched and researched. I just installed a 123 tune bluetooth distributor, and am very happy, but am aware that if I get too aggressive I could also do very bad things to the engine. Looking for advice on the advance curve and if manifold (not ported vacuum) is a good idea. Running 9.5:1 piano top pistons, 292 cam, dual dcoe 40’s. Replaced to old standby Tii distributor w/ electronic ignition. The carbs have been dialed in for years, never any problems (a little rich but that’s safe)

curve is as follow:

500 rpm  5 degrees

700 rpm 12 degrees

1000 rpm 21 degrees

1800 rpm 26 degrees

2800 rpm 36 degrees

4000 rpm 38 degrees

 

the engine feels as if it would like more advance but getting to the is this crazy or not point. I have installed ports into the manifold for using a manometer for tuning, could I use them for manifold vacuum for vacuum advance? 

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Your car is setup like a Ti, why not use a Ti curve for your distributor.  It has numbers close to what you are currently running.  According to the Blue Book, all the Ti's were set at 25 degrees BTDC at 2200 RPM although the individual Ti curves didn't always reflect this 25 degree at 2200 RPM specification, ("003". "026" and "033" distributors).  Your first 3 values are right in line with the "026" curve that starts with

 

"026" Distributor Curve

1000 RPM - 18 to 22 Degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 23 to 27

2000 RPM - 28 to 32

2500 RPM - 33 to 37

2700 RPM - 35 to 39

 

But the "026" distributor does not follow the 25 degrees at 2200 RPM spec., whereas the "003" and "033" distributors are close

 

"003" Distributor Curve

1000 RPM - 3 to 8 Degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 14 to 19

2000 RPM - 20 to 24

2500 RPM - 25 to 29

2700 RPM - 29

 

"033" Distributor Curve

1000 RPM - 10 to 13 Degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 17 to 21

2000 RPM - 22 to 26

2500 RPM - 26 to 30

2700 RPM - 30

 

I run a curve that gets me 25 degrees at 2200 RPM and tops out at 35 degrees at 3000 RPM.

 

 

In theory you can use your vacuum readings from your manifold to introduce more or less advance under two conditions (over a certain RPM and for a range of kPa readings).  I tried mapping my kPa readings using the 123 app under certain driving conditions, but could not find a consistent way to add advance when I wanted it (cruising in 4th gear, cruising in 5th gear).  So I final just disabled that feature in the 123 application.

 

Mark92131

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mark92131 said:

Your car is setup like a Ti, why not use a Ti curve for your distributor.  It has numbers close to what you are currently running.  According to the Blue Book, all the Ti's were set at 25 degrees BTDC at 2200 RPM although the individual Ti curves didn't always reflect this 25 degree at 2200 RPM specification, ("003". "026" and "033" distributors).  Your first 3 values are right in line with the "026" curve that starts with

 

"026" Distributor Curve

1000 RPM - 18 to 22 Degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 23 to 27

2000 RPM - 28 to 32

2500 RPM - 33 to 37

2700 RPM - 35 to 39

 

But the "026" distributor does not follow the 25 degrees at 2200 RPM spec., whereas the "003" and "033" distributors are close

 

"003" Distributor Curve

1000 RPM - 3 to 8 Degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 14 to 19

2000 RPM - 20 to 24

2500 RPM - 25 to 29

2700 RPM - 29

 

"033" Distributor Curve

1000 RPM - 10 to 13 Degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 17 to 21

2000 RPM - 22 to 26

2500 RPM - 26 to 30

2700 RPM - 30

 

I run a curve that gets me 25 degrees at 2200 RPM and tops out at 35 degrees at 3000 RPM.

 

 

In theory you can use your vacuum readings from your manifold to introduce more or less advance under two conditions (over a certain RPM and for a range of kPa readings).  I tried mapping my kPa readings using the 123 app under certain driving conditions, but could not find a consistent way to add advance when I wanted it (cruising in 4th gear, cruising in 5th gear).  So I final just disabled that feature in the 123 application.

 

Mark92131

 

 

 

How do you disable the MAP feature? I don’t see an option for that (other than just zeroing our the values).

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3 hours ago, revolve40 said:

I don’t see an option for that (other than just zeroing our the values).

 

that...if you don't want a MAP input.  If you have ported the manifolds, go ahead and make a vacuum line manifold out of tee-fittings available at most auto part stores.  I run the same thing with my Solex DDH carbs, which have vacuum ports like a Weber DCOM carb. Adding vacuum advance will certainly improve streetability.

 

I agree with the above recommendations about replicating the Ti curves. (my 123 curves are similar for my side draft cars) You are running a cam with more lift than the stock Ti engine, which might allow you to run a bit more advance.  Every engine and application requires it's own tune.  Only you can determine what is best for your engine.  Learn to use the "rolling road" dyno and the "rpm stopwatch" feature of the 123.  Also learn to read your plugs and install a WBO2 sensor.  

 

You say your carbs are "a little rich, but safe". Perhaps what you are thinking in terms of needing more advance, is really that it needs to be leaned out a bit?

 

In any case, it sounds like you are pretty darned close, and for carbs on the street with ever-changing pump gas... close may be good enough.  

 

Ed

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Hey, thanks, eventually I probably would have got there (or gone crazy trying), I love that the 123 is so adjustable, I also hate that the 123 is so adjustable. !

9394EC9E-6EA0-4256-BD05-35F9D557A778.jpeg

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"033" Distributor Curve

1000 RPM - 10 to 13 Degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 17 to 21

2000 RPM - 22 to 26

2500 RPM - 26 to 30

2700 RPM - 30

Mark92131, I loaded this curve in my 123 and it smoothed the engine in the lower 1500-2000 RPM range.  I was running more aggressive numbers (700 RPM - 12°/1000 RPM- 21°/1800RPM - 26°) and was getting some sputtering and lag in that RPM range.  The 033 curve really smoothed out the engine and pulls strong up to 5K (that's my limit)   Thanks

 

[  Stage 2 Kerman build:  Mahle 9.7:1, Shrick 292, dual Weber 40's, tii exhaust manifold ]

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On 6/16/2019 at 11:18 PM, Mark92131 said:

I run a curve that gets me 25 degrees at 2200 RPM and tops out at 35 degrees at 3000 RPM

Would you pls provide your curve? And, explain why you chose the curve your are using?

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3 hours ago, elfhearse said:

Mark92131, I loaded this curve in my 123 and it smoothed the engine in the lower 1500-2000 RPM range.  I was running more aggressive numbers (700 RPM - 12°/1000 RPM- 21°/1800RPM - 26°) and was getting some sputtering and lag in that RPM range.  The 033 curve really smoothed out the engine and pulls strong up to 5K (that's my limit)   Thanks

 

[  Stage 2 Kerman build:  Mahle 9.7:1, Shrick 292, dual Weber 40's, tii exhaust manifold ]

 

 

Why's your limit 1400rpm below BMW's?

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On 6/16/2019 at 11:18 PM, Mark92131 said:

Your car is setup like a Ti, why not use a Ti curve for your distributor.

 

I run a curve that gets me 25 degrees at 2200 RPM and tops out at 35 degrees at 3000 RPM.

 

Mark, would you share your curve, and do you know why the curves for these ti dizzys are all so different.

 

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Why's your limit 1400rpm below BMW's?

Only limit I have is not going above 5000 RPM.....just self imposed to avoid beating on the engine.  I have a 5-speed conversion and revving thru the gears at 4K is plenty fast on the highway.

 

EDIT --- to avoid creating further cyber angst, permit me to explain in detail:

3rd gear at 4500 - ~ 63 mph

4th gear at 4500 - ~ 77 mph

5th gear ;;; ran out of room on the interstate but its approx. 85 mph IIRC  

If I lived along a remote Montana interstate I would rev up to 5K+ thru the gears but here in congested-construction-tourist=clogged-Interstate SE PA its not possible.

The 123+ distributor is a big improvement over the twenty year old Crane electronic ignition it replaced.  I now can actually rev up to 5K where the old Crane seemed to run out of breath around 4200RPM.

 

 

Edited by elfhearse
cyber spanking
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(edited)
2 hours ago, elfhearse said:

Only limit I have is not going above 5000 RPM.....just self imposed to avoid beating on the engine.  I have a 5-speed conversion and revving thru the gears at 4K is plenty fast on the highway.

 

These engines were designed with all their power above 3,500 rpm’s (with most of the power happening between 3,500 and 5,500 rpm’s). BMW never offered an overdrive transmission because they believed you needed high revs to keep the engine in its powerband. And your engine, with a 292 cam, has shifted power upward from the stock engine. Revving above 5,000 rpm’s is emphatically not beating an M10....

 

Let that baby rev!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited by Conserv
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18 minutes ago, Conserv said:

 

These engines were designed with all their power above 3,500 rpm’s (with most of the power happening between 3,500 and 5,500 rpm’s). BMW never offered an overdrive transmission because they believed you needed high revs to keep the engine in its powerband. And your engine, with a 292 cam, has shifted power upward from the stock engine. Revving above 5,000 rpm’s is emphatically not beating an M10....

 

Let that baby rev!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.ff8cdac0fff92a256ef0c417b6523ce8.png

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8 hours ago, Chris_B said:

Mark, would you share your curve, and do you know why the curves for these ti dizzys are all so different.

 

Chris_B:

 

I went with a curve that used the 25 degrees BTDC at 2200 RPM that was reported in the Blue Book for the Ti models.  I suspect that the curves were different to adjust to changes in European gas mixtures, but that is only a guess.  My curve mimics the lower values for the "003" up to 2500 RPM and then added in some advance at the top of the scale to mimic the "026" and because my engine seemed to like it.

 

Mark92131

 

1000 RPM - 10.0

1500 RPM - 17.0

2000 RPM - 23.0

2500 RPM - 28.0

2700 RPM - 33.0

3000 RPM - 35.0

 

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