Mix and match new and original basket weave vinyl?

[AlfaBMWGuy]

I am looking to reupholster at least the back/upright section of my rear seat due to decades of UV hitting the top edge and the resulting heavy cracking.  My driver's seat base is also cracked and doesn't have the correct basket weave embossing so that's going to be replaced as well.  I was able to source from a FAQ member a quantity of used basket weave vinyl that just might barely be enough to do the back rear seat section, but it's got a few smaller cracks and abrasions that would need to be repaired to the extent possible and I'm not sure how it would come out looking compared to the rest of my original vinyl that's in really nice shape for the age.  Therefore, I've been considering buying new basket weave vinyl by the meter out of Germany and mixing and matching this new vinyl with my existing old vinyl.  Minimally I've decided I will go with original aged basket weave for my driver's seat to match the back section of that seat and the entire passenger seat is original vinyl in nice condition.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is how bad the patina mismatch would be with the rear seat if I was to do the back section in new basket weave and leave the bottom, in really good condition, in the original aged basket weave?  By patina I'm referring to both the decades of life on the original vinyl (it's a 2002 back seat and typical for those, sees most of its use when cleaning the windows rather than actual passengers) and then the composition of the vinyl from the factory 50 years ago vs. what is being produced now.  I'm sure the new vinyl is softer and more supple, but my concern is solely the appearance match and not the feel.  I previously obtained basket weave samples from both World Upholstery and GAHH.  Both are the correct embossing, but I think both would be a distinctly noticeable mismatch when there was also original basket weave vinyl.  I actually think that World Upholstery is a better match for the original because it seems to be more the equivalent quality and GAHH is actually "too good" of quality to match the original vinyl, if that makes sense, making it only appropriate for full interior restorations, and I neither have the budget, nor the need to do that given how nice most of my original vinyl is.

 

Has anyone used this "by the meter" basket weave in combination with original and what were the results?  Would you only recommend doing the full rear seat (both the back and bottom sections) rather than trying to get away with one section being old and one being new?  Or, is the consensus that if you aren't going 100% new upholstery for every bit of basket weave on all the seats, you will be much happier with the results when it's all original aged basket weave even with some minor cracking and other condition issues?  I'm not creating a show car, but it's going to be a very nice driver and other than the typical cracked dash I'll live with for a while, the interior should be condition 2 on the collector car scale.

 

Thanks,

Gary

[otisdog]

i think you'd be disappointed in the difference between the lower & upper. It's going to be stark.

[AlfaBMWGuy]

Thanks for the feedback.  This is black basketweave by the way.  Seems like I would have noted that in the book that was my original post.  I did put the swatches from GAHH and World Upholstery up against my original vinyl and for sure it's a significant difference and I would be disappointed in the mismatch, probably both from the patina (e.g. drying out over decades) and the chemical formulation of vinyl then vs. now.  I was hoping that what was coming from Germany now better matched the original than what I got as samples from GAHH and World.  But, that doesn't seem very likely.

 

I'm really annoyed now that the original owner that I bought my 2002 from a couple years ago cheaped out when reupholstering both front seat bases and not only was it not the right embossing, but they didn't match each other either!  Thankfully though he didn't touch too much else on the car and it's much more original than the vast majority nearly 50 years later.  But, given my reaction to that, I think you are entirely correct that I'd be disappointed with the new vs. old contrast as well.  Even if I was to do the entire rear seat, lower and upper, it would still contrast with the front seats and not meet my expectations, esp. having to put the money into it and it not being correct.  I was very happy though with substituting an original passenger seat base from another car and how it matched the upper section of my existing passenger seat so I think it's all good with mixing period vinyl between cars.

Edited June 11, 2019 by AlfaBMWGuy

[John_in_VA]

1 hour ago, AlfaBMWGuy said:

I'm really annoyed now that the original owner that I bought my 2002 from a couple years ago cheaped out when reupholstering both front seat bases and not only was it not the right embossing, but they didn't match each other either!

 

So now it's up to you to not cheap out and have it all match.  It'll be a more expensive endeavor, but you'll be happy with the results for a long time.

[AlfaBMWGuy]

7 minutes ago, John_in_VA said:

 

So now it's up to you to not cheap out and have it all match.  It'll be a more expensive endeavor, but you'll be happy with the results for a long time.

 

Yep, I'm making it right John.  Already swapped out his Pioneer CD player for a period Blaupunkt.  Wish he never would have cut the door panels to install speakers as well, but I at least got rid of the hideous 1990s speakers for something more understated.  The passenger seat embossing mismatch is already resolved, but I'm not having the same luck on sourcing complete original upholstery for the driver's seat or the back seat so upholstery shop labor is in the cards.  I'm thankful though with only a single owner who was 25 when he bought the car in 1971 and 71 when he sold it to me in 2017, it's not more of a non-original mish-mash than it was.  Still running the original Solex and had spent its whole life in Boise, Idaho until I bought it and now it's a 5 hour drive away in another area that's good for keeping rust at bay.

[Conserv]

1 hour ago, John_in_VA said:

 

So now it's up to you to not cheap out and have it all match.  It'll be a more expensive endeavor, but you'll be happy with the results for a long time.

 

+1

 

May I note that few, if any, people are as aware of a defect in our own car as we are!

 

With that said, here’s what I think I’m hearing:

 

You are personally unhappy with mis-matched front seats, i.e., the left doesn’t match the right. But it doesn’t sound like your proposed solution is going to result in identical front seats. So you’re positing that your partial solution will, perhaps due to its higher-quality materials and workmanship applied to the driver’s seat, make you less un-happy with mis-matched front seats. And you intend to create a top-vs-bottom mis-match for the rear seat. But you’ll like this mis-match better than the current situation, which is matched, but with the back rest showing its age.

 

I’m not entirely convinced you’ll come away happy. How much are you spending on this solution that sounds as if it will leave you somewhat satisfied, and somewhat dis-satisfied? Remember, you will be the car’s harshest critic. The fact that you recognize the differences among the vinyls says you are looking closely.

 

How are you dealing with the pleats in the new embossed vinyl? All ‘02’s originally used a heat-seaming method to create the pleats. 1966-1971(?) pleats have molded “faux stitches” in those seams. 1971(?)-1973 do not have the molded stitches: the embossed pattern “flows” through those heat-seamed pleats. Thus, the differences between the old and the new embossed vinyls are likely to be not solely the embossed vinyl itself, but also the treatment of the seams.

 

Perhaps you should consider a solution that effectively solves the worst of the problems, not a solution that leaves you with more mis-matches. Deal with the next most annoying problem down the road. If the front seats are the biggest problem, I’d solve them, as a pair of seats.

 

There are old car owners who are fine with a “quilt” of repairs to the seats, especially repairs done with good-quality materials and workmanship. But I sense from your questions here, and your clear concerns with mis-matches, that as soon as you complete your proposed repairs, you’ll be planning a solution more “unified” in its approach....

 

My opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Conserv

[AlfaBMWGuy]

Thanks Steve.  I've now got 3 out of the 4 front seat faces matched 100% to my satisfaction--would never win a national level show, but that's not the goal.  I was lucky enough to find a fellow FAQ board member a couple hour drive away who gave me a very nice condition complete black passenger seat that he no longer had a need for.  I swapped in his passenger seat base as a whole a week ago and it's a great match for my upper passenger seat--embossing, seams, piping, everything.  So if I need to scavenge and cut the passenger seat back vinyl from this seat for my driver's seat base to get that to match just as well, I can knowing it will meet my expectations.

 

Alternatively, I bought some original rear seat basketweave vinyl from another FAQ board member that I was going to use for the back/upper section of my rear seat.  On your advice, I will check the seams on this more closely against the seams of my front seats to see if I will be satisfied or if I need to keep searching.  If I am happy with the match and go forward with replacing my upper section rear seat vinyl, I could use some of my original upper section vinyl of the rear seat (below the top edge that's UV damaged) and know I'd get a good seam match as well.  The third option for my driver's seat base is to use the bottom section of the rear seat vinyl I bought.  Which of these options to takes depends on the matching of the patina and seams, condition of the vinyl (especially since the driver's base takes the most wear of any surface) and if all else is equal, I'd prefer not to cut up the good upper section of the passenger seat to give me the option to swap that in over the years to come--I didn't just swap in the entire passenger seat because mine are pre-71 seats with the great looking chrome side brackets and the passenger seat I got is from a late 1971 without the chrome brackets.  It just saved me some time not to swap over the brackets since I found those are only attached to the upper section and both upper passenger seat sections were equal in condition and matching.

 

This is a nice weather daily driver for me, but the starting point for the interior was pretty high so I'm just making it fully right to my expectations, which is going to make it much nicer than most out there even with some dash cracks and door speakers I may decide to deal with down the road.  My Alfa is my "too nice to risk driving on a daily basis" collectible and turning the 2002 into that defeats the purpose.  I'm bringing the 2002 back to the point I'd want it to be if I was lucky enough to be an original owner of one of these like the gentleman I bought it from in Boise.  I was 5 years old when he bought this car even though that's still older than a good percentage of '02 enthusiasts these days.  I've got plans for a quality paint job as well, but am anxious to get the interior done this summer (new carpet is the last item after the upholstery) and get back pictures and a list of things I've done to the original owner--lots of mechanical concerns dealt with last year so it feels real good to start seeing differences now with the cosmetics.

Edited June 11, 2019 by AlfaBMWGuy

[John_in_VA]

I got replacement covers for my '76 driver's seat in Marine blue from World Upholstery.  Their covers had heated pleat "divots" shaped like rectangles vs. the original vinyl that had squares (or visa versa).  That was upsetting - they said I was the only one who had ever mentioned this fact.  I kept the covers as they wanted me to pay for return shipping as well as a restocking fee.  I guess I got over the minute difference...

[otisdog]

Check out veterans co. in LA

[Mike Self]

Alternative solution...

Since it's the embossed vinyl that generally fails (splits along the embossed seams), retain the smooth vinyl edges and replace the embossed center sections, front and back, with a compatible velour or corduroy cloth. 

 

Most US owners have never seen a 2002 with cloth seats, as Hoffman ordered all his cars with the optional vinyl seats.  It wasn't until BMW AG took over US distribution in mid-1975 that cloth seats in US cars began to appear.

 

If I can ever find some velour or corduroy that is compatible with the 72-73 saddle vinyl, I'll re-do my E21 sport seats center sections and re-do the center section of the back seat in cloth with smooth saddle vinyl on the sides.

 

mike

[AlfaBMWGuy]

Paul at Jaymic in the UK was nice enough to take a couple pictures that compared original embossed basket weave vinyl to the new basket weave vinyl that various suppliers are selling by the meter.  Turns out that there are actually no seams at all in the new embossed basket weave.  So that definitely answers my question that you can't mix and match with good results.

 

In a pinch you could do the complete rear seat, both upper and lower sections, in new vinyl and it would have the "flavor" of the original, but definitely would be spotted right away as non-original and not be as classy looking without the seams.  So I'll be talking with my upholstery shop to figure out whether the condition of the used rear seat vinyl I got from another FAQ member is good enough to go with in my case.  Here is one of the pics Paul took so people can see the difference.  Beyond that, I think part of the patina in the original vinyl is just the dust/dirt that gets embedded in the embossing over years that a light cleaning with a rag doesn't get out.  I suspect a good scrub with a brush would have the new and old matching a bit closer if you disregard the seam issue.

 

This picture also points out that basket weave seams differ over the years.  This is an example of the later style seams where to a degree the embossing pattern is carried into the seam, making the seam a bit less prominent.  Thanks again to Steve for pointing out that not all seams are created equal.

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by AlfaBMWGuy

[AlfaBMWGuy]

15 hours ago, mike said:

Alternative solution...

Since it's the embossed vinyl that generally fails (splits along the embossed seams), retain the smooth vinyl edges and replace the embossed center sections, front and back, with a compatible velour or corduroy cloth. 

 

Most US owners have never seen a 2002 with cloth seats, as Hoffman ordered all his cars with the optional vinyl seats.  It wasn't until BMW AG took over US distribution in mid-1975 that cloth seats in US cars began to appear.

 

If I can ever find some velour or corduroy that is compatible with the 72-73 saddle vinyl, I'll re-do my E21 sport seats center sections and re-do the center section of the back seat in cloth with smooth saddle vinyl on the sides.

 

mike

 

Thanks Mike.  Your advice is always appreciated.  At this point I have 4 of the 6 seating surfaces (4 surfaces on the front seats, 2 on the back for a total of 6) looking how I want with original basket weave vinyl in really good condition.  It's only the driver's seat base and the upper rear seat section that need help on mine, which is probably true of a good percentage of '02s where the upholstery has not been dealt with in the past couple decades.  Therefore, given this decent starting point and trying to keep my budget in check, I think it makes the most sense to finish the remaining 2 rather than redoing all 6.  In fact it was your advice from years ago that I found from a search saying to reuse the less-used rear seat vinyl to replace the center sections of the heavily used front seat bases with the help of an upholstery shop stitching in the embossed vinyl that set my plan in motion.

 

I'm also fortunate enough to have what is becoming an increasingly rare thing these days, a pre-71 2002 that still has original U.S. only bits like all the side reflectors, bulging turn signals, and big vertical bumper guards.  So in order to further preserve the U.S. geekiness of my early 2002, I think sticking to basket weave vinyl rather than European market only cloth/velour is the way to go.  Still running the original Solex and no fancy Recaros either 

-Gary

Edited June 12, 2019 by AlfaBMWGuy

[Conserv]

As you know, Gary, the subtleties of ‘02 vinyl interiors are many.

 

In addition to the treatment of the seams, the height of each pleat makes a difference.  When they did the original heat seaming, they actually created a “sandwich” assembled from the embossed vinyl, a backing, and a filler — some thin padding — that made the individual pleats more rounded and prominent. The filler has generally broken down and flattened over the last 40 to 50 years. Compare the sample of late (1971-ish through 1973) vinyl you’ve shown above with a mint original seat, manufactured June 20, 1972, that still has a great deal of depth to the pleats (first and second photos below).

 

Besides the shape of the pleat itself, this has other ramifications. When the pleats are plump and deep, the heat seaming can be emulated with genuine stitching (as with thread) and the threaded stitching, because it is buried in the deep “valley”, is barely noticeable. Thus, if using the modern embossed vinyl, you would recreate the twelve pleats with genuine stitching between pleats.

 

I still cannot tell you a reasonable solution to the seat crisis. Hoping to create a pair of fabulous original front seats for my 1973 tii (manufactured October 19, 1972), I had a mint passenger’s seat (shown in the first two photos), taken in 1974 from a totaled ‘72 tii and stored in my parents’ basement since then, and an excellent driver’s seat (manufactured October 8, 1972), converted to a wheeled desk chair decades ago and never used because it was so un-balanced. I was able to re-use both seats’ embossed vinyl because it was shockingly pliable after all these years. But I had to replace the smooth vinyl flanking the embossed vinyl because the two seats had either started their lives with different smooth vinyls or the two vinyls had been treated very differently and had aged very differently.... ?

 

The last photo shows these re-done front seats, but the total cost would buy a complete operating ‘02, leaving it as an option only for an over-the-top restoration to original condition.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Conserv

[mccusername]

+1 what Steve said. Using real seams )and a very good upholsterer) can get you very close to the look of the early-ish seats.

If you have a really early seat with the faux stitching embossing, SMS Auto Fabrics says they can do it-- thought I have not seen a sample.

SMS also has what I think is a good match for the early basketweave. It has a lot of depth and you can really see the 'weave'. A lot of newer stuff just has shallow squares punched in it.

 

You are lucky that you are looking for black. If I were you and I had 4/6-- which I believe is 2/3-- of a good interior I would keep hunting for good used seats/material.

I am looking for the really early 'UPS' brown material-- almost impossible.

Good luck

Michael

 

[AlfaBMWGuy]

Thanks Michael.  A shop like SMS sounds like a good option for a no expense spared restoration, but I can't justify that with my sympathetic restoration of my nice weather daily driver.  I am thankful for the black interior and that was one of a number of reasons I bought the car I did.  I love the look of brown and saddle interiors, but do realize it's much harder to source materials.  Given what I know about new material, I do plan to go with used, either what I have already acquired or keep searching if that's not in good enough condition.