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Dudeland

Show and Tell . ITB’s please.

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(edited)
24 minutes ago, irdave said:

 

I bet either one would be nice.  I will say that having bought a couple of "kits" from TEP, I would buy another one.  And my experience with their customer service has been good.  I bought the 1500 Elite ECU because Jim has the 2500 and they are very similar (basically 4cyl vs 8cyl.)  I'm sure it's way more ECU than I need- but compatibility with what Jim is already using is important to me.

So you are running the TEP EFI TBI kit?  In terms of the Halltech. I was thinking at least the 1000 series, if not the 1500.  I can always take it with me and put in a 500 series if I sell the car. 

 

The barb fittings on the top of the TB's is for an IAC yes?  If so which one are you using?

 

Edited by Dudeland

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If you're looking for easy/tuneable, then ITBs probably isn't the way to go.

 

The E30? EFI conversion has been done by multiple people and is well documented.  Doesn't look as cool as ITBs, but is cheaper/easier to implement.

 

That being said, I'm personally thinking about an ITB setup, just not sure which one.  The RHD looks nice, but I doubt it fits with the stock brake booster.  There are a few guys that have done a dbilas setup with good results (search the FAQ)

https://dbilas-shop.com/en/intake-tract/throttle-body-kit/street-version/bmw/m10/5035/mutli-throttle-intake-system-for-bmw-e21-e30-1-5-2-0-8v-m10

 

The cheap ITB option is motorcycle ITBs, but it's a lot of custom work (I did it on a 16V VW Jetta before, I think I had ~$250 into it)

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3 hours ago, Dudeland said:

I get old cars,  that is all I have ever had, but I am at the end of my rope.   If anyone on this forum can show me something that is flexible enough to accommodate updates,  doesn't need to rev to 7K to make 140 hp,  and is less than 5-6K and doesn't need to coddled all the time I will have a serious run at it. 

 

 

Come with me... Lets explore the electric future :)

 

300+hp/tq. available from zero, programmed via laptop, so infinitely update-able, you can count the moving parts on both hands, therefore reliable and coddle-free... But.... My estimates at the moment are running around 7-10 on the low end, 15-20k on the high end.

 

 

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(edited)

But... On a side-note. My DCOE motor and 123 ignition setup is running fantastically, so don't hate on carbs too much.

 

I wouldn't hesitate packing up and disappearing for a weekend to do a multi-day-er. 

 

Efficiency wise thou.... She does drink gas like a proper Bavarian girl drinks Festbeir. 

Edited by 2002Scoob
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11 minutes ago, 2002Scoob said:

 

Come with me... Lets explore the electric future :)

 

300+hp/tq. available from zero, programmed via laptop, so infinitely update-able, you can count the moving parts on both hands, therefore reliable and coddle-free... But.... My estimates at the moment are running around 7-10 on the low end, 15-20k on the high end.

 

 

Dude I am there with you.   Electric is awesome,  the new Tesla is in a whole different league.  Driveability, instant torque and smooth power, nothing will even come close. 

 

If I had the time and space (and more money) , I would take a run at it for sure. 

 

 

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Model S rear subframes are relatively cheap.... Mid-engined 2002? who needs a back-seat anyway. 

 

I'm finding salvaged P85D dual-motor rear subframes anywhere from 3000-4500 euro. 

 

With the right battery config... You're talking 470 RWHP with the dual-motor setup. But there's also the single motor options that are much cheaper and more in-line with what isn't a death-wish. 

 

I'm waiting for people to ball up a few Model 3's and see how the battery pack prices end up.

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6 minutes ago, 2002Scoob said:

But... On a side-note. My DCOE motor and 123 ignition setup is running fantastically, so don't hate on carbs too much.

 

I wouldn't hesitate packing up and disappearing for a weekend to do a multi-day-er. 

 

Efficiency wise thou.... She does drink gas like a proper Bavarian girl drinks Festbeir. 

It always makes me think every time I see a set of DCOE's in the classifieds on this site, and the all say more or less the same reason for selling them.  It is either.  "taking my build in a different direction",  or  " will not really work for my particular application" 

 

Right now there is a pair sitting there for reason #2.  I can't see why they wouldn't work on a stock application.  I always think that they couldn't get them to run, or were afraid to try. 

 

But that aside I am a Data person,  so EFI produces data that I can use and share for diagnosis.  My fellow Faq folks are my community of peers that I use to tune this car.  I find it easier to share data than using anecdotal descriptions of how my car is behaving.   

 

 

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Soooo....I'm gonna ask a dumb question.  Why not a 292 cam and high comp pistons and a Weber 38 carb?  I daily drive mine and have been for 10 years.  Starts everyday and I won't hesitate to drive to Phoenix or NorCal on a whim...and I do that at least 4-5 times a year...Car probably makes 140hp....reliably...and revs to 7k.

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1 hour ago, jrhone said:

Soooo....I'm gonna ask a dumb question.  Why not a 292 cam and high comp pistons and a Weber 38 carb?  I daily drive mine and have been for 10 years.  Starts everyday and I won't hesitate to drive to Phoenix or NorCal on a whim...and I do that at least 4-5 times a year...Car probably makes 140hp....reliably...and revs to 7k.

Not a dumb question at all.   I would rather spend the $$ getting what I have run well,  then when the motor pops down the road, I have a great system that can realize all those gains I put into it.   

 

I think with ITB's Try Y header, MSD6a, Crank trigger computer-controlled COP windage and a couple of other goodies, get a solid 125, with great driveability. 

 

Then when I do a big cam, port, high compression, even flex fuel, I can get a solid 150-160 and I will be happy there.  But that additional 15-25HP will cost me about 8-10K and replace a motor that is working great.   

 

I can do the ITB's and COP and Crank trigger, and along with my existing Try Y MSD flywheel, 5 speed and get the best out of what I have, and set myself up for a future engine build.  

 

The Halltech allows me to manage my A/C, fans, and other goodies much easier, so does the Holley in theory,  if I can get it working properly.  The main limit with the Holley is the number of outputs and inputs it can handle.  The 2bbl version is a little sparse.

 

In the end, I just don't see the point of replacing what is working fine right now is all.   

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Getting to be a good thread! Here's what I have to add to the discussion this morning:

 

13 hours ago, 2002Scoob said:

Come with me... Lets explore the electric future :)

The fundamental electric dichotomy:

An electric motor is, quite literally, the BEST way to deliver power to basically anything.

A battery is, unfortunately, just about the WORST way to store energy.  Whether it's worth the trade-off is up to you; personally I think just getting a modern EVs would be better than a conversion, but that's just a matter of opinion.  But don't do either if your goal is to be 'environmentally friendly;' there's too many current unknowns involved to really substantiate that one yet (a lot depends on the power generation where you live and the hypothetical end-of-life of the batteries). If being green is your ultimate goal, then either ride a bike or carpool. But as always, if a 2002 EV conversion is what you WANT to do, then by all means do it!

 

13 hours ago, Dudeland said:

I can't see why [DCOEs]  wouldn't work on a stock application.  I always think that they couldn't get them to run, or were afraid to try.

You're right, DCOEs work fine on a stock motor.  The trick (and I think trap most people fall into) is to make sure the throats are SMALL enough for good throttle resolution.  40s over 45s for stock for sure.  I think I ran 32mm chokes in the DCOMs on my old stock engine.  On that same engine, I found the 45 w/I think 36mm chokes that came with the TEP Lynx setup to be too large, and it never ran as well as the smaller dual carbs.

 

14 hours ago, xr4tic said:

The E30? EFI conversion has been done by multiple people and is well documented.

If you go the M20 route, the MS2PNP from DIYAutotune is as easy as it gets.  I think anyone running a stock M20 when this is available is just nuts, but to each his own.  Put mine in the weekend after getting my E30.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/megasquirtpnp-g2-b8793-for-the-87-92-bmw-e30-325i/

On the other hand, since you're a tinkerer, this might be too much of a fire-and-forget project. I actually have some of the same reservations about Haltech for *your* personality @Dudeland, but that might not be accurate.  I'm still going to advocate Megasquirt over Haltech mostly based on cost ($500 for an assembled Microsquirt or MS2 vs. $1500 for Haltech 750), but I certainly won't discourage you from going Haltech either if that's what you want.

Which, in conclusion, I think what you mostly need to base your decision on: what do you want? I think you want EFI not carbs, and based on your original post I think you kinda want ITBs, so go with that!  I'm pretty sure @jimk is a Haltech guy and would help you out there, I've certainly got your back if you MS, and obviously there's plenty of DCOEers on here, or you and @2002Scoob can forge new ground on the electric front! So as usual, there's really no wrong choice ;) 

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the new Tesla is in a whole different league.  Driveability, instant torque and smooth power, nothing will even come close.   

...and nothing else phones home as often.  Nor offers as few available gears for shifting...

 

t

knows he's being tracked.  Doesn't like it, though.

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I have often said that ITBs and EFI is the best of both worlds. You get the induction noise of DCOEs with the infinite tuning of EFI. I will say that tuning ITBs is not easy. I had a professional handle it. But there are enough resources to assist you through the MS forums.

For those people mentioning the E30 318 system, it might work on a stock motor, but the farther you get from stock, the less adaptable that system is. Programmable EFI is the way to go. I installed Megasquirt on my old, tired, stock motor. Then when I built the big cam, high compression motor, it was a matter of a few adjustments.

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3 hours ago, Chamonix72 said:

I have often said that ITBs and EFI is the best of both worlds. You get the induction noise of DCOEs with the infinite tuning of EFI. I will say that tuning ITBs is not easy. I had a professional handle it. But there are enough resources to assist you through the MS forums.

For those people mentioning the E30 318 system, it might work on a stock motor, but the farther you get from stock, the less adaptable that system is. Programmable EFI is the way to go. I installed Megasquirt on my old, tired, stock motor. Then when I built the big cam, high compression motor, it was a matter of a few adjustments.

What is the hardest part about tuning the ITB's?  Is it balancing them? or getting the fuel curve? 

 

 

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My biggest issue was trying to get a stable enough vacuum signal to use MAP load sensing vs. Alpha-N/TPS load sensing. I understand that more sophisticated systems have hybrid functionality built in now, so may be less of an issue. 

 

Learning the software and having access to a dyno are the two biggest components to getting ITBs right.

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