Show and Tell . ITB’s please.

[Dudeland]

It may not be a surprise to many on this forum, but I am looking hard at ITBs and a good aftermarket EFI to control the lot

 

 

Anybody happy with their setup? Please share.

 

 

I am looking closely to the Jenvy Heritage and Halltech 750 or 1000. But just spitballing. I.E dcoe linkage and manifolds. I can use my crank trigger and WB 02 with the Halltech as well.

 

Would look at a glance like dual dcoe 45’’s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Simeon]

Are you paying a premium to look like you are using DCOE?  How important is that to you?  Not sure what the difference in cost is but can’t imagine that the Heritage are cheap. 

 

A set of normal throttle bodies might do the job as well, working with an existing sidedraft manifold. 

[TobyB]

The Alfa Spica system had ITBs- you could rob those. 40's,

but very minimalist.

 

I have a pair of intakes from Volvo v6's- they sat in the vee,

but would also work on IR manifolds.  Or just cut and

weld a 318 manifold.  Or drill bosses into an early 320

manifold stub.

 

t

would rather do it himself for the fun of it.

 

[revolve40]

I just converted from EFI back to 45 DCOE’s. My experience is unique, but it just never really ran the way I wanted it to. The Weber’s have their own drawbacks, but I’m much happier than before.

 

I was running 42mm TWM ITB’s and SDS, but the terrible vacuum signal meant using throttle position to sense load. It ran and drove fine, but the performance just wasn’t there.

 

EDIT: Jenvey’s and Haltech (or similar tier EFI) will be miles ahead of where I was, but just adding color to the conversation.

Edited May 27, 2019 by revolve40

[Dudeland]

The look isn't important to me.  Just ease of install and use.   Jenvey has an M10 setup, but by the time you add all the things you need, like TPS injectors, map, etc etc.   Then you need to sort out linkage.  The ITB M10 option ends up being more than the Jenevy Heritage.

 

The form factor and the ability to use plentiful DCOE goodies makes it easier it doesn't frighten me as much as other options, as I don't have to fab much / if anything.  Nor will it frighten the next person if I really, really needed to sell it. 

 

It seems like something around the 140-150 HP range that can produce it under 7K rpm is $8-10K ish (CDN). 

 

318 system with manifold and megasquirt doesn't seem to get you much, unless you turbo it,  then you are 5-7K plus plus to get the internals not to explode. 

 

DCOE webbers, are a lot of $$ and too many people try and fail to get them to work properly, and they require a ton of work to keep in tune, even then you are into 4-6K for a head that can breathe and internals that can handle 7-8K RPM to get the HP you are looking for.  So that is out. 

 

S14, sure, but 10-15K for one, plus plus to install it. If you can find one. 

 

M20 swap, but you have to cut the hell out of your car.  When you are going through that much trouble, then there are probably better swaps, like a M42, but that gets you maybe 130HP, and it will be 5-6k when all is said and done.   For that, I can likely get close to with a high compression M10 that I rev the nuts off.  

 

Going radical is ok,  you can get a 2JZ, produces 250-300 basically out of the box, but it will have a hard time fitting. And also be hard to not lose your shirt on if you are forced to sell it.  And after that and you are just going to blow up axels and rear ends full time and out drive the chassis and brakes if you are not careful.  

 

Perhaps the motor out of the S2000, I can't recall the model off the top of my head. It could be an option I guess.  

 

I need to talk to my Guru tomorrow, I am sure I will feel better after I talk to him.  He is finishing up a Honda swapped Mini and before that hand building a running chassis for a 30's Bently (I think it was a 30's, or really old at least) . 

 

[NickVyse]

2 hours ago, Dudeland said:

DCOE webbers, are a lot of $$ and too many people try and fail to get them to work properly, and they require a ton of work to keep in tune, even then you are into 4-6K for a head that can breathe and internals that can handle 7-8K RPM to get the HP you are looking for.  So that is out.

 

 

I put a pair of dellorto universal 40s on my NK. They cost me £350. The later ones are cheaper. I bought a carb balancer and a book. Set and forget, I'm really not sure where this myth about 'keeping them in tune' comes from.

 

The only time they started popping on the over run and indicating they had gone out of balance was because my head gasket had just started to fail so cylinder 4 was sucking less.

 

Head work is not a pre-requisite, but decent compression and a cam brings them (and any m10) alive.

 

With a 292 the engine's plenty fun below 6500. Cheap fun.

 

 

[2002Scoob]

I was seriously considering converting to the Jenvey Heritage DCOE's as a go-between for efficiency between my electric efforts. I've sense decided to stop throwing money at internal combustion parts all-together.

 

Honestly... Pricing isn't that bad at all. I'm pretty sure I spent more putting together my DCOE setup, although this doesn't factor in an ECU, fuel pump, etc. I was quoted the following prices-

 

All in British Pounds, not including VAT.

 

base units- 240 each, so 480 

Injectors- 74 each x4

Throttle Pot- 100 each

 

4 Cyl Setup approximately 876 total (including injectors, and throttle pots)

[Lorin]

http://racehead.com.au/products-page/throttle-body-kits/bmw-m10-complete-itb-kit/

[Dudeland]

2 hours ago, Lorin said:

http://racehead.com.au/products-page/throttle-body-kits/bmw-m10-complete-itb-kit/

Do you have one?  The price looks good for what it is.  Certainly better than the Jenevy in terms of price. Just wondering what it is like to live with. 

 

 

TEP has one as well

https://www.racetep.com/automaker/bmw/distributorless-ignition-systems-and-itb-efi-kits.html. 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Dudeland

[Dudeland]

8 hours ago, NickVyse said:

 

I put a pair of dellorto universal 40s on my NK. They cost me £350. The later ones are cheaper. I bought a carb balancer and a book. Set and forget, I'm really not sure where this myth about 'keeping them in tune' comes from.

 

The only time they started popping on the over run and indicating they had gone out of balance was because my head gasket had just started to fail so cylinder 4 was sucking less.

 

Head work is not a pre-requisite, but decent compression and a cam brings them (and any m10) alive.

 

With a 292 the engine's plenty fun below 6500. Cheap fun.

 

 

I had a set of Dellorto's on my VW back in the day.  They worked well,  but of course, when they get out of balance, you would get a nice shimmy and shake out of the flat 4. 

 

  Certainly worth looking at, if EFI is a dead issue.   Thanks much

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Dudeland

[Dudeland]

7 hours ago, 2002Scoob said:

I was seriously considering converting to the Jenvey Heritage DCOE's as a go-between for efficiency between my electric efforts. I've sense decided to stop throwing money at internal combustion parts all-together.

 

Honestly... Pricing isn't that bad at all. I'm pretty sure I spent more putting together my DCOE setup, although this doesn't factor in an ECU, fuel pump, etc. I was quoted the following prices-

 

All in British Pounds, not including VAT.

 

base units- 240 each, so 480 

Injectors- 74 each x4

Throttle Pot- 100 each

 

4 Cyl Setup approximately 876 total (including injectors, and throttle pots)

 

Can you expand on the solution, please?   I am not sure what you mean by "base units". 

 

 

 

[2002Scoob]

40 minutes ago, Dudeland said:

 

Can you expand on the solution, please?   I am not sure what you mean by "base units". 

 

 

 

 

I think they're alluding to the diameter, and i'm sure there's some customization possible. 

 

The literature they sent me states they're available in 40, 42, 45, and 48mm versions. So i'd assume they're talking about their basic 40mm unit, and prices go up from there. 

[AustrianVespaGuy]

@Dudeland, are you considering ditching the Holley setup then? Also, I forget, which cam do you have, and what's your driving usage? Reason I ask is the major advantage of the ITBs is mostly at the top end, and thus best paired with a pretty aggressive cam and matching driving style.  For more street use though the midrange performance of both the 318 and 320 manifolds should not be discounted, as they get stoopid-good resonance in the mid-range with those long runners, which also pairs very nicely with the same mid-range performance that your tri-Y headers are tuned to.

BUT. . . nothing beats the sound nor looks of ITBs, so that might make it easy right there.  I've often and seriously considered switching to to them, and always kept a eye on both the old TWM throttle bodies and more recently the Jenvy Heritage bodies, but jeez, for the price now I'd probably go for that RHD setup.  For $1700 and it comes with everything except injectors? Wow!

[irdave]

2 hours ago, Dudeland said:

Do you have one?  The price looks good for what it is.  Certainly better than the Jenevy in terms of price. Just wondering what it is like to live with. 

http://racehead.com.au/products-page/throttle-body-kits/bmw-m10-complete-itb-kit/

 

TEP has one as well

https://www.racetep.com/automaker/bmw/distributorless-ignition-systems-and-itb-efi-kits.html.

 

I bet either one would be nice.  I will say that having bought a couple of "kits" from TEP, I would buy another one.  And my experience with their customer service has been good.  I bought the 1500 Elite ECU because Jim has the 2500 and they are very similar (basically 4cyl vs 8cyl.)  I'm sure it's way more ECU than I need- but compatibility with what Jim is already using is important to me.

[Dudeland]

I just want to use my car daily at the end of the day.   The carb either gives me bottom end then leans out on top, or top end but boggs on the bottom.   I tried for months to get it to work right, but at the end of the day, it is just a carb there is only so much you can do. 

 

ITB's seem more tuneable, and that style of EFI system may work better than putting a TBI on a manifold with a sharp elbow into the intakes. 

 

The Holley is ideal but I really don't think it is going to work.  I am screwed today because of memorial day, so I will have to wait until tomorrow to get the broken one to them for service. 

 

Just so sick and tired of having to tweak this stupid thing,  I don't trust it.  I just want to put my family in it and go for a coffee, but i can't because I can't finish it and put the center console in it, because I don't know if I am going to stick with the EFI or go carb or go dumpster.   I don't know if it going to run or stall or backfire. 

 

I get old cars,  that is all I have ever had, but I am at the end of my rope.   If anyone on this forum can show me something that is flexible enough to accommodate updates,  doesn't need to rev to 7K to make 140 hp,  and is less than 5-6K and doesn't need to coddled all the time I will have a serious run at it. 

 

 I have a great local motor guy that can freshen up what I have and put the compression anywhere I want for 2-3K if need be.  But that doesn't address driveability and good throttle response. 

 

I was thinking of calling Patrick at Midnight Motorsports.  But I don't have 6-8 months for him to build me something, although I am sure it would be spectacular, and the USD exchange rate is killing me now.  Like 30-35% exchange rate. 

 

I kinda just need it fixed and I need it now.  I want to enjoy the car this summer, and it looks like a complete shit show for the foreseeable future. 

 

P.S I am kinda pissy.   I went out to my wife's car today and the fucking junkies broke in and cleaned the thing out.   Welcome to Vancouver!! ...  Fucking hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate this place.  I am a prisoner in my own home.  And I am in a nice upscale neighbourhood.