Jump to content
Chris_B

123/Tune+ Oh No!

18 posts / 544 viewsLast Reply

Recommended Posts

I participated in the great 123 Ignition group buy of 2016. Didn't get around to installing the dizzy until last week. I have been working on tuning my 45 DCOE carbs for the last several years, and finally got them to perform they way I wanted. I decided I should modernize my ignition system, since I was running a system I installed not long after I got the car and rebuilt the motor in 2004: new JFD4 002 dizzy, Pertronix Ignitor, Jacobs Energy Ignition coil, MSD 6A (analog) ignition.

 

That ignition system only had about 10K miles on it, but I figured newer had to be better so I bought the 123 ignition dizzy and recently an MSD 6AL digital ignition. BTW, the original system worked great with my DCOE setup after tuning.

 

Buying the 123/Tune+ was a mistake. I am a gadget freak and could not resist the BT interface version, although I am sure that once I have the advance curve set up I will not use the tuning function again. In retrospect, I would much rather have the logging capability of the USB version. However, the dashboard on mobile phone feature is very cool. Again, not something I am likely to use all of the time.

 

I have a couple of problems. I went against my cardinal rule of not making changes until the change is proven before installing the next change. I first did the swap of the analog MSD for the digital. Everything seemed to work fine, with the car idling in the driveway. Then, I installed the 123 Ignition. After a bunch of trial and error, I got the new dizzy installed properly (not a dig at the 123 ignition- I was being lazy and did not track the rotation of the motor enough to get the dizzy pointed in the right direction on first try).

 

My presumption is that the 123 dizzy should be installed at static TDC, since the dizzy can control the timing absolutely. I have a few questions/problems:

 

I have read all of  posts here about the 123 ignition that I could find with search.. I have yet to see a recommendation for the curve to use for a lightly breathed on motor with dual 45 DCOE carbs (9.5:1, E12, Motorsport 300 cam, IE shorty headers, 2.5" exhaust). Would greatly appreciate receiving that.

 

A bizarre thing that started happening after this installation- my temp gauge started going wonky, like I have seen when the instrument panel is not properly grounded (mine is). The needle floats around, but when I shut off the motor it drops to the correct temp level.  Does anyone have any experience with this problem? I have to believe that this relates somehow to the new MSD ignition that I installed...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I participated in the great 123 Ignition group buy of 2016. Didn't get around to installing the dizzy until last week. I have been working on tuning my 45 DCOE carbs for the last several years, and finally got them to perform they way I wanted. I decided I should modernize my ignition system, since I was running a system I installed not long after I got the car and rebuilt the motor in 2004: new JFD4 002 dizzy, Pertronix Ignitor, Jacobs Energy Ignition coil, MSD 6A (analog) ignition.
 
That ignition system only had about 10K miles on it, but I figured newer had to be better so I bought the 123 ignition dizzy and recently an MSD 6AL digital ignition. BTW, the original system worked great with my DCOE setup after tuning.
 
Buying the 123/Tune+ was a mistake. I am a gadget freak and could not resist the BT interface version, although I am sure that once I have the advance curve set up I will not use the tuning function again. In retrospect, I would much rather have the logging capability of the USB version. However, the dashboard on mobile phone feature is very cool. Again, not something I am likely to use all of the time.
 
I have a couple of problems. I went against my cardinal rule of not making changes until the change is proven before installing the next change. I first did the swap of the analog MSD for the digital. Everything seemed to work fine, with the car idling in the driveway. Then, I installed the 123 Ignition. After a bunch of trial and error, I got the new dizzy installed properly (not a dig at the 123 ignition- I was being lazy and did not track the rotation of the motor enough to get the dizzy pointed in the right direction on first try).
 
My presumption is that the 123 dizzy should be installed at static TDC, since the dizzy can control the timing absolutely. I have a few questions/problems:
 
I have read all of  posts here about the 123 ignition that I could find with search.. I have yet to see a recommendation for the curve to use for a lightly breathed on motor with dual 45 DCOE carbs (9.5:1, E12, Motorsport 300 cam, IE shorty headers, 2.5" exhaust). Would greatly appreciate receiving that.
 
A bizarre thing that started happening after this installation- my temp gauge started going wonky, like I have seen when the instrument panel is not properly grounded (mine is). The needle floats around, but when I shut off the motor it drops to the correct temp level.  Does anyone have any experience with this problem? I have to believe that this relates somehow to the new MSD ignition that I installed...
Both together is not working because of that both are doing the same functioning, in my opinion. So, 123 tune with the correct coil and that's it. Or using msd with hall signal on your old ingintion and the correct coil.

Br, Maarten

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Both together is not working because of that both are doing the same functioning, in my opinion. So, 123 tune with the correct coil and that's it. Or using msd with hall signal on your old ingintion and the correct coil.

Br, Maarten

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

+1. Bosch red coil is what's recommended. Talk to Le Tran of 2002 GarageWerks; he's the unofficial 123ignition maestro/whisperer.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Maarten_van_Dijk said:

Both together is not working because of that both are doing the same functioning, in my opinion. So, 123 tune with the correct coil and that's it. Or using msd with hall signal on your old ingintion and the correct coil.

Br, Maarten

 

The MSD is just a fancy part-time multi-spark coil, it doesn't control timing, so it should be fine with the 123 dist.

 

The big knock against the MSD is the tach will no longer work, you have to run an adapter.  If you have the tach hooked up, try disconnecting it and see if that fixes your coolant gauge problem.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, xr4tic said:

 

The MSD is just a fancy part-time multi-spark coil, it doesn't control timing, so it should be fine with the 123 dist.

 

The big knock against the MSD is the tach will no longer work, you have to run an adapter.  If you have the tach hooked up, try disconnecting it and see if that fixes your coolant gauge problem.

 

I have the tach adaptor. I moved from an analog MSD 6 to a digital MSD 6. I will give that a try, just for grins. Thanks for the suggestion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, 1936spyder said:

+1. Bosch red coil is what's recommended. Talk to Le Tran of 2002 GarageWerks; he's the unofficial 123ignition maestro/whisperer.


 

So, using an MSD, the dizzy is not connected to the coil. It basically just switches the MSD, which drives the coil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Chris_B said:

Would greatly appreciate receiving that.

 

I run a slightly modified ignition map based on a 2002Ti "033" Distributor.  My car has is running Single Weber 45 DCOE 152G Carb on Lynx Manifold, E12 head with 9.5/1 Pistons, 284 Cam and Shorty IE Exhaust Manifold.

 

25 Degrees @ 2200 RPM (flywheel ball in the timing window)

 

1000 RPM - 10 Degrees TDC

1500 RPM - 17 Degrees TDC

2000 RPM - 23 Degrees TDC

2500 RPM - 28 Degrees TDC

2700 RPM - 33 Degrees TDC

3000 RPM - 35 Degrees TDC

 

Try it and tweak until you are happy.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the curve. The last curve I tried was as follows- didn't really get to vet this curve because it has been raining out here in central CA and I don't drive my 02 in the rain.

 

1000 RPM - 10 Degrees TDC

1500 RPM - 15 Degrees TDC

2000 RPM - 20 Degrees TDC

2500 RPM - 25 Degrees TDC

3000 RPM - 30 Degrees TDC

3500 RPM - 38 Degrees TDC

 

Bearing in mind that I am running 0 degrees TDC static, since with the 123, there is no reason to push the curve up by having a static advance. Also, there doesn't seem to be any reason to check the dynamic timing (flywheel ball). If I've got this wrong, someone pls comment.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the 6A and 123 and don't have a problem with the temp gauge.   Check the ground strap to the motor maybe? 

 

Ohhh yeah...  just remembered this.  Go into the app, and check the voltage to the 123. It should be very close to the voltage at the battery.  If you have a blast or a 74+ with the resistor wire, take that out.  The Coil I use is the matching blaster 2 coil as per the MSD recommendation.  Also, the wires need to be the proper resistance.   I don't know enough about each component to know if I could use anything else.  

 

Regards

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grounds are good. It's a '73, no resistor wire. Are you running a 6A digital?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Chris_B said:

Bearing in mind that I am running 0 degrees TDC static, since with the 123, there is no reason to push the curve up by having a static advance. Also, there doesn't seem to be any reason to check the dynamic timing (flywheel ball). If I've got this wrong, someone pls comment.

 

In theory you are correct, certainly 123 tell you to set static based on when the green light comes on. The reality for me is that I am a butter fingers and getting something like that right is an impossibility. It then makes sense to have a point on your curve that corresponds to the ball (25 degrees BTDC) at a known engine speed. That way you can dial up that speed and shoot for the ball with your lamp and adjust accordingly. This will dial out any inaccuracies that were put there during installation and give you confidence that the timing it shows on the app is correct. 

 

You probably know this already ready but you can’t use a standard ‘advance’ timing light with an MSD. The multiple sparks confuse it. You need to stick with a plain Jane fixed advance light so that’s why the ball is useful. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I take your point, thanks. In all the years that I have had my 02, I have never used the flywheel ball to time my motor. I should know this, but Is the ball set for 25 degrees BTDC on every flavor of 02 motor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Chris_B said:

I take your point, thanks. In all the years that I have had my 02, I have never used the flywheel ball to time my motor. I should know this, but Is the ball set for 25 degrees BTDC on every flavor of 02 motor?

 

Yes it is (assuming that the correct flywheel dowels are in place).

 

BMW varies the engine speed for that given advance to cope with different engines and distributor applications. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/17/2019 at 9:01 PM, Chris_B said:

I have yet to see a recommendation for the curve to use for a lightly breathed on motor with dual 45 DCOE carbs (9.5:1, E12, Motorsport 300 cam, IE shorty headers, 2.5" exhaust). Would greatly appreciate receiving that.

 

One big advantage of the 123 is you can build your curve for your motor, with your mods. Start with any reasonable baseline; the stock curve or the one you posted above. Set your engine’s rpm for each point (ie 1500) then add advance. If the engine speeds up, then it could use that advance.  Good.  Bump the rpms back to 1500 and add advance again. Repeat until the engine speed no longer increases, you’ve reached the limit of benefit from advance at that rpm.  Write down your results (you did keep track of how many bumps you gave it, right?) at that point for the graph.  Increase your engine speed to the next point on your graph, and do it all over again.

 

You can also use the stopwatch function of the 123 to do the same thing, but it’s nice to get all the heavy lifting done in the shop close to tools, and it’s not so tempting to the local constabulary.

 

When done, build a new curve based on the numbers of degrees advance you added to each point. Id probably bump each point back a bit to allow for changes in fuel, temperature and other whims of the gods. No need to dance on the edge of the knife if you don’t need to. After all, the only knock sensor on this engine is between your ears.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.