Open Heart Surgery

[Einspritz]

OK; so if I understand this conundrum, there are a few observations, and perhaps through verbosity, clarity.

 

The wax motor does travel 10mm against a spring to move the piston for air bypass up to open (cold) and down (hot) to the closed position. Inside the WUR there is a brass sleeve with 2 holes in it, with an indexing detent aligning it such that one of the holes aligns with the nipple to the plenum hose.

 

The piston, at the bottom of its stroke (cold), has three passages that allow air to pass from the outside through the brass sleeve and hole to the plenum providing additional air for warm up. When the wax element expands the 10 mm (I don't recall the temperature range, but should be less than what your thermostat is) the piston should be roughly flush with the collar nut and seal around the perimeter and be sufficient NOT to allow (much) air to pass. Since there is only the piston / sleeve interface, I suspect that there can be small amounts of air to pass. That shouldn't be a problem if it is small, and you will then compensate for it at the TB at idle (the tiny throttle plate screw) . Once you crack the throttle, that amount of air (under vacuum at idle) should then be de minimus in relation to the total air intake.

 

With respect to the height of the threaded collar, consider this: The wax motor is sealed to the body of the WUR by an O-ring. IF that was replaced, there then may be a height difference translating to the sleeve which then translates to amount of thread showing at the threaded collar. It is independent of the distance of travel, but do check that the threads are clean so that the collar nut can be screwed down. Perhaps the threads were buggered up preventing it from screwing down all the way. Remember though the exact position of the piston will vary with "ambient" temperature.

 

When warm, or using your shim tool, you make sure that the distance between the hat and fuel control lever (Dave's reference) is at least 4 mm. So that is between the 2.6mm (in the blue book, pg 12) and Wes' 6 mm. Remember to NOT adjust the fuel enrichment screw to do this.....it is for warm up only.  To reiterate, when cold, the piston is down allowing air to pass AND moving the fuel enrichment lever on the pump to provide added fuel during warm up. As the wax motor expands, the piston moves up closing off the air and at the same time via the hat, releases the fuel enrichment until there is a gap of 2.6 mm - 4 mm - 6 mm(?). It is measured at the fuel control lever, but not adjusted there.....

 

 

Was that helpful, or did I miss the point?

 

ted

 

 

[Swiss 2002Tii]

Ted, thanks for this detailed reply.  Somehow I missed it, I thought the thread had gone cold.

 

Yes, very helpful, particularly confirming that there can be "some" air passing through at full extension.  The travel on the WUR seems normal in terms of full extension after a few minutes, and the grub screw does find its home.  I pinched off the air hose after full extension and could discern no difference in motor performance, so I think I'm good there.

 

I've had the car out for a trial run, and it's running pretty smoothly.  It was indicating rich during warm-up at AFR 8.1-8.6, but that's not surprising, as I just set everything for nominal "zero".  Unfortunately, my Innovate LM-2 O2 sensor has now failed for the second time, so I'm flying blind. ?

Personally I think it's unacceptable that these sensors are so failure prone.

 

I already have the impression that the adjustments at idle screw and mixture screw are much more predictable than with the previous setup. 

 

I will dial down the hat to 4mm and take the car for a longer spin tomorrow to observe performance. 

 

[Einspritz]

Beauty.

 

And if you think i haven't responded, then send me and e-mail and tell me to get off my rear.

 

Funny that the sensors crap out, are they the ones with the heating element (4-wire)? Perhaps they are not getting hot enough to burn off the rich mixtures....I don't have an Innovate, just a coupla bosch LM-11s wired directly to 12v and a dual digital volt meter I put together in a Radio Shack box.......but that's from back in the '80s-90s.....

 

did you get a reading at WOT before the sensor crapped out? That's the most important setting. And don't you have an analog unit?

 

I wouldn't worry so much about the idle a t this time as that is the last setting, both AFR and RPM, and it is better to be rich and smooth running than "ideal" and it whipsawing up and down.

 

Of course, in the end, are you happy with the performance......

 

Hey, the Turbo community is discussing if the Turbo came with (black) undercoating from the factory; I contend that it did (Tectyl), others don't agree. If you happen to be talking with the company you bought your Coupe from, ask them, as I seem to recall they sold a Turbo or two.....just as another opinion.

 

I'd appreciate it.

 

The weather is warming up so back to working in the garage (or bike riding) when I have a "day of".

 

Best,

 

Ted

['76mintgrün'02]

58 minutes ago, Swiss 2002Tii said:

Unfortunately, my Innovate LM-2 O2 sensor has now failed for the second time, so I'm flying blind. ?

Personally I think it's unacceptable that these sensors are so failure prone.

 

How long is the bung?  

 

 

[Swiss 2002Tii]

6 hours ago, '76mintgrün'02 said:

How long is the bung? 

Thanks for the thread link!

 

It is about 30mm long; it was supplied by Innovate with the meter.  My understanding is that Innovate wants the tip of the sensor out of the direct flow of the exhaust. (Photo from your thread)

 

This is the placement, about 4" back from where the down pipes join.  That's about the limit, as I am right close to the tranny.  I searched, but had not seen any images showing installation straight down such as yours.  Very nice.  I was conscious to keep it at the half-line, and not below for the condensation issues.

I forgot to snap a photo of the mounted bung, but a local metal shop did a beautiful welding job. I will be under there to pull it soon enough, so I'll snap a photo then!

 

 

[Swiss 2002Tii]

8 hours ago, Einspritz said:

did you get a reading at WOT before the sensor crapped out? That's the most important setting. And don't you have an analog unit?

 

I got a few indications before it flaked out, and I think I was good, around 13-14 AFR at higher RPMs (didn't get as far as WOT readings), a few spikes up to 16-17 AFR with engine braking.  Until I get a new sensor I won't have much confidence in these numbers.  In general, I did not experience the knife-edge drop-off to crazy lean, so that's a good thing!

 

In retrospect, I wish I had bought the simple analog meter version.  Reading the changing digital display is a pain while driving.

 

I have been thinking of a three-gauge analog cluster with AFR, fuel pressure, and oil pressure.  I hesitated, as I am aligned with your "set it and forget it"  approach to AFR once the system is set up properly. 

The AEM analog gauge uses the earlier Bosch LSU 4.2, which is supposedly more robust, and their electronics do not require calibration as the Innovate LM-2 / LSU 4.9 system does.

BUT, the LSU 4.2 connector is different from the LSU 4.9, so I would not be able to use the LM-2 with it (without modifications). ?

The LM-2 manual says both can be used, but when I ordered the replacement sensor, I recall that they showed two different connector shapes to differentiate the LSU 4.2 from the LSU 4.9.

AEM does not make all three of the above gauges, AFR, Fuel, and oil pressure, but Innovate does.  Either way, sounds like a project for next winter!

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Swiss 2002Tii
additional info

[Swiss 2002Tii]

11 hours ago, Einspritz said:

did you get a reading at WOT before the sensor crapped out? That's the most important setting. And don't you have an analog unit?

 

OH...MY...GOODNESS, and I'll throw in a HOLEY MOLEY! The heart surgery was a resounding success!  I'm ready to do sprints against Usain Bolt! ?

 

My LM-2 must have been copied on my nasty-gram to Innovate.  It worked "normally" today (despite having to be re-booted 20 times, it actually gave me meaningful readings). 

 

I made no adjustments from previous runs, I just warmed it up and went for a test drive.  That turned into a grinning 2-hour romp through winding hilly roads with some fun hairpins.  

 

This car has never run so well.  I was winding it up to 5500 rpms, and it was just singing.

I had a chance to observe AFR through long accelerations, and holding it steady at various rpms up to 5000.

Warm idle: a little high @ 1000 rpm, AFR steady 8.6

Low partial open throttle: @ 2000-3500 rpms, AFR 8.6-9.6

High partial open throttle: @ 3500-4500 rpm, AFR 12.0-12.8

Wide open throttle: @ 4000 -5500 rpm, AFR 12.0-14.7, never exceeded 15.0

When running at a constant rpm without load, AFR would settle at 8.6-9.3 at pretty much any rpm.

 

Great acceleration, free-revving motor, ready to wind up and launch.

What was missing?  Backfires.  Zero, ZERO backfires on deceleration and engine braking, even after hi-rev romps.

 

Ted, I tried your "brake dyno"  test multiple times for load under WOT at various rpms in 2nd and 3rd gears.  AFR would go to 14.4-14.7, but not higher.

I made no adjustments after this run, even though my idle remains steady at 1000 rpm. 

I have not adjusted the WUR hat washer to 4mm from 6mm yet, as my O2 meter worked and I just wanted to test drive.

I wanted to hear your thoughts before I make any changes.

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Swiss 2002Tii
additional info

[Swiss 2002Tii]

On 4/10/2019 at 6:29 PM, SydneyTii said:

I like this idea!

 

SydneyTii, coming back to this point, WARNING:

 

 

The coarse surfaces of the plenum and runners are pretty forgiving, but if you use oven cleaner on your valve cover, spray on, count to ten, and WIPE OFF/RINSE.  Repeat multiple times if required, but don't leave it on as you would an oven surface (enameled), as when it bubbles, it will "leopard spot"  the finish (ask me how I know ?).

 

 

[Einspritz]

Last things first:

2 hours ago, Swiss 2002Tii said:

it will "leopard spot"  the finish (ask me how I know ?).

 

is that white ? Could be Phosphate in the solution. It would be the same if you put those in your neighbor's dishwasher and used traditional dishwasher soap.

 

3 hours ago, Swiss 2002Tii said:

Ted, I tried your "brake dyno"  test multiple times for load under WOT at various rpms in 2nd and 3rd gears.  AFR would go to 14.4-14.7, but not higher.

 

I would strive to make the WOT at 4% CO / 13.0 AFR ( or a bit less @ 13.2 AFR) and then see what the partial throttle AFR is.....your partials seem a bit rich at (high) 12-12.8 AFR = 6.7%-4.6% CO. If you don't have a change at WOT, then try adjusting the D cam just a hair Clockwise to lean it out mid-range. Remember that "full throttle" as far as the throttle plate is concerned is at about 85% opening, and the rest is an increase in fuel.

 

Did you know the redline begins at 6500 RPM? :)

 

For me the fun of this engine is all above 4500 RPM.

 

For others, it is important to note that this is where having TB bushings and bearings "perfect" comes into play as if not, then all your minuscule adjustments get out of whack each time you open and close the throttle plate....Ditto for a worn distributor.

 

Speaking of which, it is imperative that you don't have too much advance throughout the rev range. More is not more.

 

Idle can then be set between 2.5%-4.5% CO = 13.56-12.83 AFR but in my view whatever works to get a smooth idle, and smooth transition from idle to mid range, e.g. from stop to accelerating up through the gears  under load. There should be no "hiccups" in transition up the rev range.

 

And lastly, I think I need to reconsider the Innovate products, and for now will stay "old skool" with voltage readings or even my heathkit.....with, you know, an analog needle...

 

Cheers in tuning!

[Swiss 2002Tii]

No, it stained darker gray than the normal aluminum.  I could get most of it out with quick applications and a Scotch Pad.

 

I will be travelling for a week, but hopefully in two weeks time the weather will permit a tuning run.

I'm pretty confident that I can get understandable responses from small changes this time around.

 

I just got a response from Innovate, and the fellow was suggesting a bad connection using the cigarette lighter plug (the only power connection they supply).  As soon as he confirms the pin-out, I am cutting that thing off and connecting direct to the fuel pump circuit so that it powers on and off with the fuel pump.

 

The performance today was so consistent from start to end and through much romping that I think the "set and forget"  is possible, with periodic checks.

 

RE: Timing: I dialed back since I first got the 123 ignition dizzie.  My mechnical dizzie advance was more like the Series 5; it bit the dust as I was traveling through a 10-km series of tunnels on a two-lane major trucking artery through the Alps.  Luckily, it was mostly downhill, and it sputtered, banged, and detonated downhill and I finally drifted into a village at the end.  Not fun!

I might have increased the starting timing advance back to 4 degrees (for a better start) since I created this chart, but everything above 1000 rpm would be as the gray Series 3 line.

 

	02.02.18 Final Curve	22.06.18 Reset	Next Test	27.09.18 Setting	04.11.18
RPMs	Degrees	Degrees	Degrees
500	6	6	0	0	0
800	6	8	4	0	0
1000	15	12	6	4	4
1100
1500	20	20	14	10	12
1800
2000	25	25	20	18	18
2200
2500	28	28	26	23	23
2800
3000	30	30	30	26	27
3200
3500	32	32	32	30	30
3600
4000	32	32	32	32	32
4300
4500	32	32	32	32	32
5000	36	34	34	32	32

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Swiss 2002Tii

[Swiss 2002Tii]

3 hours ago, Einspritz said:

Did you know the redline begins at 6500 RPM?

 

For me the fun of this engine is all above 4500 RPM.

 

? I'm just getting to the point where that's a possibility.  It does feel good in that range!

 

I felt like I was close to "wagging the tail"  a few times today!

Edited April 22, 2019 by Swiss 2002Tii
additional info

[Einspritz]

You will know it when you feel it.

[Swiss 2002Tii]

13 hours ago, Swiss 2002Tii said:

I just got a response from Innovate, and the fellow was suggesting a bad connection using the cigarette lighter plug (the only power connection they supply).  As soon as he confirms the pin-out, I am cutting that thing off and connecting direct to the fuel pump circuit so that it powers on and off with the fuel pump.

 

Innovate confirmed it's a simple red/black wire combination and recommended a direct connection to +12V.  Considering it can pull a couple of amps during warm-up, perhaps a really robust connection is the solution.

I'll report when I make the changes.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Swiss 2002Tii

[Swiss 2002Tii]

On 4/22/2019 at 4:30 PM, Einspritz said:

I would strive to make the WOT at 4% CO / 13.0 AFR ( or a bit less @ 13.2 AFR) and then see what the partial throttle AFR is.....your partials seem a bit rich at (high) 12-12.8 AFR = 6.7%-4.6% CO. If you don't have a change at WOT, then try adjusting the D cam just a hair Clockwise to lean it out mid-range. Remember that "full throttle" as far as the throttle plate is concerned is at about 85% opening, and the rest is an increase in fuel.

 

Did you know the redline begins at 6500 RPM?

 

For me the fun of this engine is all above 4500 RPM.

 

For others, it is important to note that this is where having TB bushings and bearings "perfect" comes into play as if not, then all your minuscule adjustments get out of whack each time you open and close the throttle plate....Ditto for a worn distributor.

 

Speaking of which, it is imperative that you don't have too much advance throughout the rev range. More is not more.

 

Idle can then be set between 2.5%-4.5% CO = 13.56-12.83 AFR but in my view whatever works to get a smooth idle, and smooth transition from idle to mid range, e.g. from stop to accelerating up through the gears  under load. There should be no "hiccups" in transition up the rev range.

 

As a follow-up, I had a romping tuning run yesterday.  My O2 meter was somewhat more reliable, so I got pretty good readings.

My starting point as above:

Warm idle: a little high @ 1000 rpm, AFR steady 8.6

Low partial open throttle: @ 2000-3500 rpms, AFR 8.6-9.6

High partial open throttle: @ 3500-4500 rpm, AFR 12.0-12.8

Wide open throttle: @ 4000 -5500 rpm, AFR 12.0-14.7, never exceeded 15.0

When running at a constant rpm without load, AFR would settle at 8.6-9.3 at pretty much any rpm.

 

I made three incremental 1/8 turns CW on the air mixture screw, driving and observing AFR and response between each 1/8 turn adjustment

Warm idle: dialed down to 900 rpm, AFR likes to stay at a steady 8.6

Low partial open throttle: @ 2000-3500 rpms, AFR 9.6 -11

High partial open throttle: @ 3500-4500 rpm, AFR 12.0-12.8

Wide open throttle: @ 4000 -5500 rpm, AFR 13.0-15.0, only exceeded 15.0 as a spike on engine braking, coming off of throttle (occasionally)

When running at a constant rpm without load, AFR would settle at 9.0-9.6 at pretty much any rpm.

 

I'd say at these settings, idle was just very slightly lumpy compared to before, but it seems the wind-up to 5000 rpm was a little freer, faster.  I'm talking very slightly, because it is idling really well.

 

Small changes, more observation than adjustment. On the next runs I will do as Ted recommends and move the D-cam slightly clockwise. and see if I can move the lower throttle / rpm AFR range leaner.  

 

All-in-all, performance was really good.  The fantastic news is I'm not getting that knife-edge drop-off to crazy lean as with the previous KF setup.

 

I just remembered, I haven't dialed down my WUR enrichment lever to 2.6mm yet!

Edited May 2, 2019 by Swiss 2002Tii
additional info

[PaulTWinterton]

Excellent progress!  Good to hear your AFR is functional once again.

 

I'm still learning and analyzing information about what is optimum performance of a KF system.

 

Back in the day, you heard mechanics and owners talk about different setups for adhering to regulations or performance.  Often adhering to regulations caused the engine to idle poorly and have lumpy acceleration.  Setting up for performance fixed the idle and acceleration problems.

 

That's how I recall it, from about 1985 onward.  Because there was really only the Sun machine for testing, it was always a visit to the witch doctor to tune the KF.  It wasn't until later that the Internet and FAQ and AFRs gave the power back to us to make our own adjustments.

 

I still scratch my head over performance vs. "economy" of the tii. You will hear some speak of +30mpg.  I have yet to get past 27mpg, and with an acceptable 13-15 AFR reading on the highway, I'm still at 24-25mpg*.  That's a full 20% below what some are suggesting for optimum KF/tii economy.

 

I know it's a rant that I continue to make, but I WANT ANSWERS!  

 

* 70 mph sustained

* Chevron 92 summer blend

* 175 - 175 - 175 - 175 compression

* odometer reading adjusted for tire size, etc.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Swiss 2002Tii said:

Warm idle: a little high @ 1000 rpm, AFR steady 8.6

 

Seems overly rich to my mind.  I'm around 10.5-11 at idle.