Koni sport vs Bilstein HD

[dave-r]

I recently rebuilt my suspension using Koni adjustable sport struts and shocks, Ireland Engineering stage 2 springs and all poly bushings. So far I have only driven the car twice as snow/salted roads soon after put an end to that until spring or heavy rains. I will say the ride is sporty and FIRM with all 4 koni's set to 50%. The roads where I live a relatively nice but I could see if you live in a city where you had alot of manholes/patched street it could be a little aggressive.

One additional thought is to adjust the shocks you do have to remove them from the car, I would like to maybe adjust fronts but kinda dread the process.

I owned an 1987 e30 325is and had H&R's with Bilstein Sports and that rode very nice...not harsh at all with 14" wheels and Michelin Pilots, with that being said my '02 has 13" all season 185 width tires which somewhat let the suspension down but may help take the edge off.

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Koni sport/Billy sport/ stage 2's was "was for the young or the young at heart" I think that is the best explanation. As many have mentioned with the shock shortage from some manufacturers if you find them and do not like them resale will not be a problem. Good luck. Let us know what you do and your thoughts!!

Dave.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[irdave]

Here's some knowledge...

 

The spring has a couple of jobs, chief among them 1. support the chassis (maintain chassis geometry), 2. push the wheel into the ground to maintain the contact patch, 3. comfort (not too stiff.)  If the spring is too soft it will allow too big of acceleration of the wheel up to the chassis when you hit something.  This is where the damper (shock) comes into play- if the wheel is moving up faster than the shock expects, the shock will resist this movement very aggressively, which will feel harsh.  This is often where a stiffer spring will make the suspension feel more plush, because it's doing more to help keep the wheel from accelerating so fast- and so the shock doesn't freak out.

 

So in basic application, if you put a stiff shock on a soft spring it will feel harsh (spring allows for a lot of movement, shock says no way).  If you use a stiff spring with a soft shock it will wallow all over the place (wheel goes up too far in bump, over-compressing the spring for what *should* have happened, then the stiff spring will push the wheel away hard...)

 

This is a really interesting conversation / thread to follow.  You guys are talking about using the same shocks for decades and I'm having a hard time accepting that it's probably fine to run the Ground Control Koni kit...  To me the shock doesn't have enough tune-ability and isn't easy enough to service.  I mean, I am an anal retentive jerk when it comes to mechanical stuff- and this is what I do for a living- maybe I just expect (and ask) more from my suspension.  For reference, I think the new BMW's leave a LOT to be desired when they're stock; just can't feel anything and have very little control.  To me it's like crappy speakers- sure, music is still coming out of them, but that ain't what it's suppose to sound like.

[AustrianVespaGuy]

One small but possibly important point of clarification: are the Koni's adjustable in compression AND rebound, or only in rebound?  I thought they were generally rebound-only, but am not sure about this.

[jgerock]

16 hours ago, TodB said:

Timely post.

 

For those who have Bilstein HDs, H&R springs and 15" wheels/tires, what do you use for spring pads front and rear? Especially interested hearing from those with fixed camber plates on the front which seem to raise the front a bit more. I've also read about some who don't use spring pads but do use rubber water hose on the springs.

My tii is set up like this but with 14" wheels/tires.

Front:  IE fixed camber plates (no aluminum spacer), stock rubber spring pads,  H&R Sport springs, Bilstein HD strut inserts, 22mm ST sway bar.

 

Rear: Stock rubber spring pads (top has 3 dot),  H&R Sport springs, Bilstein HD shocks, 19mm ST sway bar.

[irdave]

16 minutes ago, AustrianVespaGuy said:

One small but possibly important point of clarification: are the Koni's adjustable in compression AND rebound, or only in rebound?  I thought they were generally rebound-only, but am not sure about this.

 

I think you can get them both ways- I think I remember Marshal talking about having to remove the inserts from the strut tube to adjust compression...

 

And to be fair, typically adjusting the rebound adjuster also adjusts compression in the same direction.

['76mintgrün'02]

57 minutes ago, jgerock said:

My tii is set up like this but with 14" wheels/tires.

Front:  IE fixed camber plates (no aluminum spacer), stock rubber spring pads,  H&R Sport springs, Bilstein HD strut inserts, 22mm ST sway bar.

 

Rear: Stock rubber spring pads (top has 3 dot),  H&R Sport springs, Bilstein HD shocks, 19mm ST sway bar.

 

Does your car sit level?  I have the same components (H&R/HD/ST), minus the camber plates and the rear would be 3/4" higher than the front (measuring between the rocker/ground), if I had not installed the aluminum spacers up front.

[jgerock]

33 minutes ago, '76mintgrün'02 said:

 

Does your car sit level?  I have the same components (H&R/HD/ST), minus the camber plates and the rear would be 3/4" higher than the front (measuring between the rocker/ground), if I had not installed the aluminum spacers up front.

Slightly lower at the rear (depends on how much weight I have in the trunk)

Stock springs. Left rear before

H&R springs. Left rear after

Edited January 28, 2019 by jgerock

[AustrianVespaGuy]

Remember 2002s tend to have a bit of a German Shepard sagging-ass look because of the difference in the fender shapes.  I run the 3-dot rear spring pads to counteract this so that my car 'looks' level, but in reality this gives it a slight rake of about 1/2" higher in the rear, so you kinda need to pick between 'true' and 'apparent' levelness.  I'm H&R, Bilstein HDs, but no stock nor camber plate crap up front.

Edit: best picks I can find before/after change to 3-dot rear pads, granted both shots are in motion, but still you can kinda see in the first one how the ground to rocker clearance is pretty even, but the fender gap in the front looks much larger.  In the second one the gaps are much more even, but you can kinda tell the small ground/rocker angle:

Edited January 28, 2019 by AustrianVespaGuy
Requisite pics.

['76mintgrün'02]

 

 

It looks like your car sits lower in the rear than mine.  This photo shows the difference between two dot pads and three.  (23" mark was two dot)

Edited January 28, 2019 by '76mintgrün'02

[jgerock]

48 minutes ago, '76mintgrün'02 said:

 

 

It looks like your car sits lower in the rear than mine.  This photo shows the difference between two dot pads and three.  (23" mark was two dot)

At the time of my tape measure pictures, may have only had 1 or 2 dot upper spacers. I was running 195-60-14 tires on 14 x 6 wheels.   Have 185-60-14 tires now.  

[TobyB]

Quote

I did have Konis on the front of the '69 for about 40k miles back in the 1970s, until one of 'em simply came apart inside the strut. The weld at the top of the tube failed.  No warranty.

 

Interesting.  Koni has a lifetime warranty these days- although, you have to have the receipt, no exceptions.

 

I HAVE had Koni yellows fail on the E30- and each time, they've been warrantied for the cost of shipping back to GC.

 

However, on the 2002 race car, I bought a new set after 5 seasons,

figuring that it was just time to freshen them up, but when I took things apart, I was surprised

to discover that the old and the new were in essentially the same condition.

 

As to what the adjustment does, on the singles I have it adjusts both compression and rebound.  

However, I do NOT have stock 2002 fitment shocks/ strut inserts.

 

fwiw.

t

 

[AustinOski]

I bought a car with IE stage II springs, Bilstein Sports and IE (anti) sway bars front and rear. Handles well, but too harsh for me. I have 185/65 r14's on BBS, to complete the picture.

 

I'm thinking about going to Konis all around, with the same springs. But, wondering if that would be a mistake and perhaps I should go to Stage 1. I'd like to keep (most) of the lack of roll, but introduce a bit more compliance in the ride (which I think would actually also help cornering on bumpy surfaces, though it stays fairly well planted). 

 

I'm also wondering how low in the hard to soft range I could go with Stage II and Koni adjustables, which is part of my question on the Stage I vs Stage II. If the Stage II shock is too firm to allow the Konis to be adusted to less that 50%, did I really make a change? The springs are the least expensive.

 

Lastly, when tires were changed the other day, looked and saw the rubber was on the spring pads were pretty cracked. That's probably not helping the ride. I'd stick with the poly on the sway bars and go rubber elsewhere (that makes sense to change while in there).

 

@dave-r - any updates on your experience with the IE Stage Its and Konis?

[AustinOski]

One more thing on this - I did call IE and ask for their advice. They really didn't have any pertinent advice. I asked if a softer shock would work and, if so, what they recommended. They said the Bilstein HD would work. I pointed out it's been unavailable in the US for a very long time and asked what they recommended in their place. They didn't have a recommendation.

 

I said, okay, if I switched to Stage I's, what would they recommend up front. Same, Bilstein HD's. I said, I think they've not be available for two years or something. What have people been doing in the meant time. He said he didn't know. 

 

Odd.

 

[gary32]

"2002s tend to have a bit of a German Shepard sagging-ass look because of the difference in the fender shapes". 

Well said AustrianVespaGuy.

To all you fine gentlemen with tape measures try measuring from ground to belt line. 

 

[AustinOski]

26 minutes ago, gary32 said:

To all you fine gentlemen with tape measures try measuring from ground to belt line. 

 

31 people working from their home offices simultaneously stand up and walk to their cars and start measuring.