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Learning more about Engines


jackhossross

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Hi guys -

 

Call me crazy but hear me out ... I will be finishing my 1989 Landcruiser sometime this spring and will be looking for another project. I do not own a 2002 yet - but have been setting aside money to take the dive once the correct one comes along.

 

In the meantime, I would like to get more familiar with engines in general. I am yet to take apart an engine to learn about the different components and how combustion physically works. I think an M10 would be a great place to start - so I plan on acquiring a complete M10 engine and setting it on a stand to start investigating and getting educated. I learn with my hands but what manual would help educate me on how the engine is put together and taken apart?

 

I have read quite a bit about the different M10 engines, but I want to hear from enthusiasts:

 

If you could transplant any M10 engine into your 2002, which one would it be? Think about which engine and which 5 speed plays nicely together.

 

Thanks!

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A garden-variety carbureted 2002 M10 would be a good start.  I'd look for one from a late 72 or any 73--a '74 would be OK too.  They have the E12 head and a two barrel carb setup, and have very little in the way of external emission stuff to clutter things up.  Both earlier and later motors have air pumps and all sorts of other emission junk.  You really don't want to "learn" on a tii motor; carbs are much easier.  And earlier cars have a 1 barrel carb and the 121ti head with smaller valves.

 

And when you've learned by rebuilding it, you can look for an '02 with a good body and shot engine, and you'll have one all ready to drop in.

 

mike

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'69 Nevada sunroof-Wolfgang-bought new
'73 Sahara sunroof-Ludwig-since '78
'91 Brillantrot 318is sunroof-Georg Friederich 
Fiat Topolini (Benito & Luigi), Renault 4CVs (Anatole, Lucky Pierre, Brigette) & Kermit, the Bugeye Sprite

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A garden-variety carbureted 2002 M10 would be a good start.  I'd look for one from a late 72 or any 73--a '74 would be OK too.  They have the E12 head and a two barrel carb setup, and have very little in the way of external emission stuff to clutter things up.  Both earlier and later motors have air pumps and all sorts of other emission junk.  You really don't want to "learn" on a tii motor; carbs are much easier.  And earlier cars have a 1 barrel carb and the 121ti head with smaller valves.
 
And when you've learned by rebuilding it, you can look for an '02 with a good body and shot engine, and you'll have one all ready to drop in.
 
mike



Happy to hear I am not nuts. I’ve done quite a bit of work on my Landcruiser but have cut the chord and sent it to the shop for anything oil touches. It is fuel injected though.

I’m not familiar with the term “garden-type.”

All M10 engines have the same size block correct? So technically I could buy an E12 and swap in a Tii block?

I have quite a bit of learning to happen ...


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Gotta get your heads staight.

 

121, e12, etc... all bolt up to the M10 block, but use different pistons- flat top, piano, bathtub. Some interchange, others bend valves. 

 

Pros and cons will be argued for all set ups.

 

Decades ago I rebuilt my 02 motor -2 liter m10 with a 1.8 head and CIS from a 81 320is (this was waaay before S14s and M20s were around).  Had to make it Smog legal in CA. Drove a lot like a tii motor but a little less fiddly.

 

Lots of choices- figure your needs/wants and budget.

Steve J

72 tii / 83 320is / 88 M3 / 08 MCS R55 / 12 MC R56

& too many bikes

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The 2 liter block is the most common, tho other iterations are 1.6 and 1.8,  and others 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M10

 

The factory shop manual is on this site under technical resources.

 

"Garden-variety" is a 50's term used by old codgers and 2002 experts which means commonly found ?

 

Cheers,

 

 

Ray

Stop reading this! Don't you have anything better to do?? :P
Two running things. Two broken things.

 

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Gotta get your heads staight.
 
121, e12, etc... all bolt up to the M10 block, but use different pistons- flat top, piano, bathtub. Some interchange, others bend valves. 
 
Pros and cons will be argued for all set ups.
 
Decades ago I rebuilt my 02 motor -2 liter m10 with a 1.8 head and CIS from a 81 320is (this was waaay before S14s and M20s were around).  Had to make it Smog legal in CA. Drove a lot like a tii motor but a little less fiddly.
 
Lots of choices- figure your needs/wants and budget.


My budget will be $28k complete.

I am currently able to do all interior work myself and will be learning engine work.

I always seem to want more power though. Which makes me lean towards the Tii and upping my budget to $32k total.

Grabbing something like this:

http:// https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/franktown-73-bmw-2002-tii/6795483206.html

I need to start reading about the different engines. Thanks for the great commentary guys. Really love these conversations.

/shrug


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You can make more power with a carbed car, compared to a tii. 

 

Well, relatively, practically speaking....

 

For cheaper power, go turbo  M42 IMO :)

 

That ad is missing pics of the most  problematic rust-prone areas.

 

Cheers,

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Ray

Stop reading this! Don't you have anything better to do?? :P
Two running things. Two broken things.

 

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1 hour ago, ray_ said:

"Garden-variety" is a 50's term used by old codgers and 2002 experts which means commonly found ?

Hey--I resemble that remark!  I am an old codger and have been accused of being a 2002 "expert."

 

But I learned the term "garden variety" honestly--from my late and much-missed father-in-law, who started wrench-twisting on Model T's back in the 20s (he drove one from NY to Ft Lauderdale--in 1924!) and taught me how to work on stuff.

 

mike

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'69 Nevada sunroof-Wolfgang-bought new
'73 Sahara sunroof-Ludwig-since '78
'91 Brillantrot 318is sunroof-Georg Friederich 
Fiat Topolini (Benito & Luigi), Renault 4CVs (Anatole, Lucky Pierre, Brigette) & Kermit, the Bugeye Sprite

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Welcome to the FAQ!  You are right, the M10 is a GREAT starter motor.

 

If you are after more power, you mentioned the "Tii".  Understand that in terms of functional motor internals there is nothing unique with respect to a "normal" engine.  The camshaft and other components are all the same.  The euro-tii offered a higher compression pistons, but so did the "ti", and any self-respecting engine rebuilder.  
 

Ray and Mike are both on point (as usual), it is easier build a carbed engine and you'll typically have more power as well.

Here's an intro into cylinder head rebuilding...

https://adamsautosport.com/bmw-m10-cylinder-head-rebuild-introduction/

 

Here's the basic "hotrod"-spec M10 recipe.

https://adamsautosport.com/information/tutorials/bmw-m10-street-hotrod-engine-checklist/

 

Here's a thread that covers the basic differences between cylinder heads.  Pictures were taken when I still was at IE, but the information is still relevant.

https://www.bmw2002faq.com/forums/topic/140561-difference-between-e12-and-e21-heads/

 

Hope that helps, best of luck.  We are all here to help fellow addicts.

 

 

 

Edited by AceAndrew
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$28K-$32K? What's there to learn? that kind of money gets you a nice looking AND running 2002. Drive and enjoy. I don't know what sort of driving you intend to do with your 2002, or how much tuning you want to take on, but I suggest you test drive a bone stock 2002, then test drive a Tii. If you feel something is needed, then explore tuning options from there. Thing is with these motors, you have many different directions to go for tuning. I don't understand going down a particular path until you have a baseline to judge and work from.

 

I'm probably in the minority here, but I am perfectly happy with my bone stock 2002 (M10) with 32/36 Weber. I can get to 100 mph and it's unbelievably reliable for a 45 year old car. I can carve up country roads just fine, pushing it hard with power to spare. My goal from the start is to spend more time in the driver's seat than under the hood. Also, unless you really know what you're doing mechanically, your knowledge resources narrow considerably once you head down the path of heavy tuning, major modifications and engine swaps. This forum has been great, but like anything else, there are limits. I used to have a 1976 BMW 3.0si. My biggest fear was not finding someone to help me with my K-jetronic fuel injection system as I doubt anyone in my town had the knowledge to work on it. At least with a Weber and stock M10, what I can't figure out, there are plenty out there and resources who can help. I'm no mechanic, but I'm comfortable with my 2002.

 

Good luck with your new acquisition 

Edited by joebarthlow
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1974 BMW 2002 (Polaris > Sienabraun)

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$28K-$32K? What's there to learn? that kind of money gets you a nice looking AND running 2002. Drive and enjoy. I don't know what sort of driving you intend to do with your 2002, or how much tuning you want to take on, but I suggest you test drive a bone stock 2002, then test drive a Tii. If you feel something is needed, then explore tuning options from there. Thing is with these motors, you have many different directions to go for tuning. I don't understand going down a particular path until you have a baseline to judge and work from.
 
I'm probably in the minority here, but I am perfectly happy with my bone stock 2002 (M10) with 32/36 Weber. I can get to 100 mph and it's unbelievably reliable for a 45 year old car. I can carve up country roads just fine, pushing it hard with power to spare. My goal from the start is to spend more time in the driver's seat than under the hood. Also, unless you really know what you're doing mechanically, your knowledge resources narrow considerably once you head down the path of heavy tuning, major modifications and engine swaps. This forum has been great, but like anything else, there are limits. I used to have a 1976 BMW 3.0si. My biggest fear was not finding someone to help me with my K-jetronic fuel injection system as I doubt anyone in my town had the knowledge to work on it. At least with a Weber and stock M10, what I can't figure out, there are plenty out there and resources who can help. I'm no mechanic, but I'm comfortable with my 2002.
 
Good luck with your new acquisition 



28 -32 is the full build budget, I will not be buying one that is already complete. I am on the higher side expecting that I will need to tow it to my shop in Loveland, CO a few times when I’m stumped. But I am budgeting to be prepared financially if that happens.

This is an opportunity for me to learn how to build a car from 0 to 100. I didn’t have the balls to do it on my first project (1989 Landcruiser), so want to give it a go on a 2002!

That is some really great advice, regarding a baseline - I fall into the restomod pack of people. Will most likely shave areas of the body, tuck wires in the engine bay, upgrade to LED/HID lights, install E46 coupe seats (have them in my Landcruiser and love them), etc, etc.

I appreciate that this forum seems to let people go their own path and explore the ways they want to be creative - as long as it means another 2002 on the road.

To me it’s the same as going to school, it’s an investment in educating myself.



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Welcome to the FAQ!  You are right, the M10 is a GREAT starter motor.
 
If you are after more power, you mentioned the "Tii".  Understand that in terms of functional motor internals there is nothing unique with respect to a "normal" engine.  The camshaft and other components are all the same.  The euro-tii offered a higher compression pistons, but so did the "ti", and any self-respecting engine rebuilder.  
 
Ray and Mike are both on point (as usual), it is easier build a carbed engine and you'll typically have more power as well.

Here's an intro into cylinder head rebuilding...
https://adamsautosport.com/bmw-m10-cylinder-head-rebuild-introduction/
 
Here's the basic "hotrod"-spec M10 recipe.
https://adamsautosport.com/information/tutorials/bmw-m10-street-hotrod-engine-checklist/
 
Here's a thread that covers the basic differences between cylinder heads.  Pictures were taken when I still was at IE, but the information is still relevant.
https://www.bmw2002faq.com/forums/topic/140561-difference-between-e12-and-e21-heads/
 
Hope that helps, best of luck.  We are all here to help fellow addicts.
 
 
 


Thanks for all the great resources - Ih8mud has been an incredible resource for my Landcruiser and it seems I’ve stumbled on another fantastic community here.


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Alright.  Relevant experience.  The tii mechanical fuel injection has some limitations, especially for us up here at elevation.  The tii is faster than a stock 2002, but who's leaving anything stock?  It's pretty easy to build a carb'd engine to be faster than a tii, and a carb'd engine is much simpler.  I'm out of town for the weekend, but get in touch next week.  You can take a look at my '72 tii I'm selling so you can see what everyone is talking about.

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Dave.

'76, totally stock. Completely.

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