Tlambert

72 2002, Verona $23k to FAQ members

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Looked at all the pics.  Frankly, 25k is too low.  If a person spends 11 or 12 on one in reasonable shape you’ll still spend another 10 or 15 (more) getting it refreshed to that point if not actually more,to get all the way through the mechanical, interior, wheels, tires, etc.  .  assuming your engine and suspension is already all sorted out, they are money and time ahead.    I bought mine for 11 and easily have 15 in it right now. Probably a smidge more.    Happy for every penny spent. 

 

Heck, and I know some will be choking on their coffee when they read this, but I’d ask 30. Will you get It?  Mmmmm.... maybe.  It may take a bit. And you are heading into winter which for most of the country is not prime driving season.    But someone will be a buyer at that price. It’s got  a factory sun roof for crying all night!

 

 I mean think about it... if a person has to spend 25k to get it to that point, ( again, you have to buy a darn car first, then work your way through it) that’s just writing the checks. It’s also all  the time, etc. they are “buying” time.  

 

yes, yes... I know what the response will be.   But the parts only cost “x.”   Ok, then you can buy them then  spend the year laying on the floor of your garage putting it in and enjoy it a year from now when the project is done. If ever.  Been there.  Done that.  Don’t get me wrong, I like turning wrenches too.  That’s why I got mine in the first place...well, maybe the second place.  But life”s short, similar 911s are North of 40 when properly sorted (if not more), and plenty of people are wanting to go back to high school.  That’s what this is.  I want to enjoy mine.. NOW.   Not a year from now and give up all my weekends in the process.  

 

Okay, I’ll go put my flack jacket on and await the responses....  haven’t seen the Board blow up since the “want the inside story” guy.   

 

No, I’m not a total philistine.   I winterized the boat today and do have some check list things on the 2002 for the winter.  I’m not just a check writer.  And  I do respect everyone on here who brought their cars back from life support with their own two hands.  I wish I had the time.  But, I rely you get my point.

 

do let us know how it turns out?  Good luck. 

 

 

 

 

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I cant say that I'd argue your points. I have been around these little cars for decades, now, and watched the angst of the woulda, coulda, shoulda of buying and upgrading/restoring round and squaretails...I now realize how fortunate (I would say smart if I had bought 10 2002's when I bought my current 02..) that I was to do what I did, and when I did it. This looks like an honest "moment in time" opportunity for someone, at 23K. I wouldn't make any 911 comparisons, but would look at what similar period Alfa'$ are doing. The demographic for 02's is such that the demand is still really strong, and should stay that way for several more years. $30K is a good low retail number, and I think a great place to start, but there is much more karma to be had for the right loving buyer at 23-25K. Plenty of profit for the seller, I'm guessing, but not greedy. Maybe its just old-fashioned, but I get much more satisfaction selling for a little less, at times, to folks who obviously have the passion, rather than the ones who just want something. I think that there is a difference. So, as stated, no real argument at 30K, and cutting the right someone a great deal...

Dave V., lousy capitalist...

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On 11/12/2018 at 1:48 AM, D Seattle said:

Looked at all the pics.  Frankly, 25k is too low.  If a person spends 11 or 12 on one in reasonable shape you’ll still spend another 10 or 15 (more) getting it refreshed to that point if not actually more,to get all the way through the mechanical, interior, wheels, tires, etc.  .  assuming your engine and suspension is already all sorted out, they are money and time ahead.    I bought mine for 11 and easily have 15 in it right now. Probably a smidge more.    Happy for every penny spent. 

 

Heck, and I know some will be choking on their coffee when they read this, but I’d ask 30. Will you get It?  Mmmmm.... maybe.  It may take a bit. And you are heading into winter which for most of the country is not prime driving season.    But someone will be a buyer at that price. It’s got  a factory sun roof for crying all night!

 

 I mean think about it... if a person has to spend 25k to get it to that point, ( again, you have to buy a darn car first, then work your way through it) that’s just writing the checks. It’s also all  the time, etc. they are “buying” time.  

 

yes, yes... I know what the response will be.   But the parts only cost “x.”   Ok, then you can buy them then  spend the year laying on the floor of your garage putting it in and enjoy it a year from now when the project is done. If ever.  Been there.  Done that.  Don’t get me wrong, I like turning wrenches too.  That’s why I got mine in the first place...well, maybe the second place.  But life”s short, similar 911s are North of 40 when properly sorted (if not more), and plenty of people are wanting to go back to high school.  That’s what this is.  I want to enjoy mine.. NOW.   Not a year from now and give up all my weekends in the process.  

 

Okay, I’ll go put my flack jacket on and await the responses....  haven’t seen the Board blow up since the “want the inside story” guy.   

 

No, I’m not a total philistine.   I winterized the boat today and do have some check list things on the 2002 for the winter.  I’m not just a check writer.  And  I do respect everyone on here who brought their cars back from life support with their own two hands.  I wish I had the time.  But, I rely you get my point.

 

do let us know how it turns out?  Good luck. 

 

 

 

 

 

Despite a few examples — generally on BaT — that seem to sell for ridiculously high prices, I believe it’s hard to sell a used car, even one as cool as an ‘02, but especially one that is 40-50 years old. It might cost someone $30K+ to duplicate this car starting with a $10K-$15K example. But that does not equate to a fair market value for this car of $30K. There are lots of buyers for “hobby cars” — meaning, older cars that are generally not daily drivers — at the “$15K and under” level, and especially at the “$10K and under” level. There are far fewer buyers at the $25K level. This means that the $5K-$15K cars sell at a premium because they are eminently affordable and provide an opportunity for the buyer to do his/her own thing.

 

I constantly read comments on this forum like, “you can sell that car all day long at $40K”. They say that, I suppose, because they see a car that would be difficult to duplicate for $40K. But the car actually sells for $25K. Why? It’s a relative minority of ‘02 buyers who can (a.) afford a $40K hobby car, and/or (b.) want someone else’s dream car, rather than building their own dream car.

 

My opinion.

 

GLWS,

 

Steve

 

Edited by Conserv
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This is another car I'm totally head over heels for. I have a total

Verona obsession from early on!

 

Nearly every roundie 02 around back then (70's) on the SF Peninsula was Chamonix, Nevada, Agave or a few Golf . ALL of them except for this one Verona tii a few blocks over....and it was G O R G E O U S! I lusted over that car more than most of the girls I ever went out with!

 

I totally believe whoever buys this for $23k will be getting a fair deal

 

But if it was me selling it I'd get rid of those wheels in favor of some clean steelies and nice hub caps, ditch the 320i steering wheel for a bus driver' or ti'  steering wheel.  AND yank that header for a stock manifold (a tii manifold would be acceptable imho... and a nice addition)....Make it look OE to attract more affluent buyers.

 

 I know if I bought it those 3 things  would be gone the first week. Just to be honest I'm an ediot OE snob....

 

 

Edited by iinca
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iinca, I like your passion, I have the original steering wheel, the sport wheel is my personal favorite. It has the stock manifold on it, no header. When I bought it 14” steel wheels were on it, didn’t like the look, so I decided to go with the “Alpina” look. Come on buy it, I’m willing to make a deal!

Edited by Tlambert
Spelling, dang auto correct

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18 hours ago, Conserv said:

I constantly read comments on this forum like, “you can sell that car all day long at $40K”. They say that, I suppose, because they see a car that would be difficult to duplicate for $40K. But the car actually sells for $25K. Why? It’s a relative minority of ‘02 buyers who can (a.) afford a $40K hobby car, and/or (b.) want someone else’s dream car, rather than building their own dream car.

 

I agree with all of that.  This is a very wonky observation to make and we are way past the value of this one car. But it is an interesting conversation point.  Which is this.

 

Something is only "worth" what a person is willing to pay for it.  Conversely, if a person wants something, and the only way to get it is to pay "X" and that is the only option, then "X" is what its worth.

 

Why are 911 values going through the roof?  Well, I guess we can look at the number made. But, they are available to be had.  They are not so rare as to be unobtainable.  And having looked very actively at older 911s for a few years now (say 1968-1980) there are no fewer now, than there were a few years ago.  BUT, I do see that the asking prices keep going up.  And I've made offers below those prices and have not walked away with a 911.  Of course, we can assume they all don't sale for the asking price.  But, those people asking more for those 911s are moving the needle higher by simply putting that as the asking price.  And every time it is moved up, that is the base for the next one to move a little higher.  The are setting market expectation.  Now, no one looking for even an averaage'ish, older 911 would expect to pay anything less than 30 despite the fact you could have bought them "all day" (I think that was the line) for in the low 20s not that long ago.  And below that not that much longer ago.

 

It seems to me, and I mean this with love and affection, that 2002 owners have a borderline lack of self esteem problem.  Hear me out. 

 

It seems like most of the people on the FAQ (and I love them for it) have had their cars forever.  THEY bought it for 5k, or 7k.  So, to them, that is their base line.  Then the spend years buying parts and putting them on themselves.  E.G., no labor and no retail parts mark up by a mechanic.  They may have put 15K or even more in parts and time, but are out of pocket maybe a couple of grand.  So when they think of what their car is worth, they go: well, I paid, 5K for it.  I spent about 5K in parts for it... see where I am going.

 

Yes, I know that prices above 20 are hard to obtain.  But, that should be expected.  That is what the supply of them is offered at in general. So if "you" have an example of a car that is or should be worth more and you ask for it, you won't get it because the buyer will just go down the road and by some other 2002 that is undervalued.

 

It would be an interesting, long term, sociology experiment if "everyone," whoever that is, simply decided en mass to start asking more for these cars.  In some respects, the enthusiasts control the market.  Sure, you ask $30K, you may get 24K.  but if you ask 24k, you are only going to get 20k, or maybe 19.

 

If you control supply, you control the price (hence price fixing).  I am not suggesting price fixing.  But I am suggesting that it seems like, again with love and affection, as a demographic 2002 owners underestimate their own worth.

 

Finally let me say this: I did not buy mine or have the work done on it to sell it.  I'll either end up giving it to one of my kids or they can fight over it when I die - hopefully a long time from now.  I don't "care" what mine is worth b/c its not for sale and won't be.  I wonder if we have any economics Ph.d's reading?  

 

Cheers.

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3 hours ago, D Seattle said:

 

I agree with all of that.  This is a very wonky observation to make and we are way past the value of this one car. But it is an interesting conversation point.  Which is this.

 

Something is only "worth" what a person is willing to pay for it.  Conversely, if a person wants something, and the only way to get it is to pay "X" and that is the only option, then "X" is what its worth.

 

Why are 911 values going through the roof?  Well, I guess we can look at the number made. But, they are available to be had.  They are not so rare as to be unobtainable.  And having looked very actively at older 911s for a few years now (say 1968-1980) there are no fewer now, than there were a few years ago.  BUT, I do see that the asking prices keep going up.  And I've made offers below those prices and have not walked away with a 911.  Of course, we can assume they all don't sale for the asking price.  But, those people asking more for those 911s are moving the needle higher by simply putting that as the asking price.  And every time it is moved up, that is the base for the next one to move a little higher.  The are setting market expectation.  Now, no one looking for even an averaage'ish, older 911 would expect to pay anything less than 30 despite the fact you could have bought them "all day" (I think that was the line) for in the low 20s not that long ago.  And below that not that much longer ago.

 

It seems to me, and I mean this with love and affection, that 2002 owners have a borderline lack of self esteem problem.  Hear me out. 

 

It seems like most of the people on the FAQ (and I love them for it) have had their cars forever.  THEY bought it for 5k, or 7k.  So, to them, that is their base line.  Then the spend years buying parts and putting them on themselves.  E.G., no labor and no retail parts mark up by a mechanic.  They may have put 15K or even more in parts and time, but are out of pocket maybe a couple of grand.  So when they think of what their car is worth, they go: well, I paid, 5K for it.  I spent about 5K in parts for it... see where I am going.

 

Yes, I know that prices above 20 are hard to obtain.  But, that should be expected.  That is what the supply of them is offered at in general. So if "you" have an example of a car that is or should be worth more and you ask for it, you won't get it because the buyer will just go down the road and by some other 2002 that is undervalued.

 

It would be an interesting, long term, sociology experiment if "everyone," whoever that is, simply decided en mass to start asking more for these cars.  In some respects, the enthusiasts control the market.  Sure, you ask $30K, you may get 24K.  but if you ask 24k, you are only going to get 20k, or maybe 19.

 

If you control supply, you control the price (hence price fixing).  I am not suggesting price fixing.  But I am suggesting that it seems like, again with love and affection, as a demographic 2002 owners underestimate their own worth.

 

Finally let me say this: I did not buy mine or have the work done on it to sell it.  I'll either end up giving it to one of my kids or they can fight over it when I die - hopefully a long time from now.  I don't "care" what mine is worth b/c its not for sale and won't be.  I wonder if we have any economics Ph.d's reading?  

 

Cheers.

 

So, if $30K and up gets you into a 911, that’s gotta siphon off a lot of ‘02 fans in the $30K and up category: I believe most ‘02 owners — well, at least one, me — are simply frustrated would-be 911 owners.... 😉

 

Reflecting your point regarding how many (especially long-time) ‘02 owners under-value their cars, I had my ‘76 appraised after its recent Big Re-Paint. Admittedly, my cars — new or old — are never denied anything they might need. I got an appraisal simply to know how much insurance I should buy. I neither met nor talked to the appraiser. And I didn’t haul out the thousand photos, four volumes of receipts, etc. that give the car value to me. I expected $30K-$35K. It’s a ‘76, for heaven’s sake. I paid $7.5K for it brand new (and then spent a zillion dollars on it, which I cleverly have never added up!). Wrong. $52.5K.... 😮

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited by Conserv
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