ClassDavid

How many are left?

16 posts in this topic Last Reply

Recommended Posts

(edited)

This is obviously an impossible question however I am curious if someone kept track with a registry or if anyone has a rough idea. It would seem as if finding a Turbo is easier! I assume the turbos have a fairly high survival rate in comparison to a Ti but they did make 16,448 2002tis and only 1672 Turbos. I keep hearing of Tis that got crushed back in the day because of rust issues and I assume thats the way the majority of them went. Also I recently picked up a fairly early car. Vin # 16807xx. Built in November 1968. I’ll share pictures when I pick up the engine and extra parts but I just got thinking that there does not seem to be many of these around and even the knowledge on the cars is scarce. What do you guys think!?

Edited by ClassDavid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"How many Ti's can you fit on the head of a pin?"

 

Congrats on the find, though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Ti is at the very top of my wish list.  Having owned one many years ago (now in Rey's collection) I know how rare they are.  As to your question, I have no idea and I doubt anyone else does with certainty.  I remember that back in the 90s there was an informal sig and the consensus back then was maybe 20 total in North America.  I think that was just an educated guess.  They are out there though.  This one is at a shop in the Bay Area and has apparently been for sale for a while:

 

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/d/1970-bmw-2002ti-silver/6616164901.html

 

Delia mentions it in a 2016 post.  I spoke to the seller yesterday.  He seemed like a good guy and I think ended up with the car as an abandoned project left my an owner who ran into difficulties.  The seller sent me about 50 images and based on the VIN and some details it does appear to be a legit Ti.   I decided that it was a little too rough for me to take on but given the values and depending on your welding skills, it could make sense.  Sadly, the original engine seems long gone, replaced by a rebuilt 2.0.  I didn't ask if it had the correct 121 head.  Also the original non-snorkel nose has been replace with a standard 02 part.  But, the air filter housing brackets are present on the driver's inner fender and I could see the boxed trailing arms.  It is a car that deserves resurrection, I believe, but you would have a hard time making the math work given the non-matching engine.

 

Still, as your post says: "how many are left?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill:

 

Can you send me the VIN and a couple of photos?  I'm trying to keep track of these...

 

Thanks

 

Andy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

In reality I think there are certainly hundreds of them around the world, probably not thousands. It was the point of my separate post in the forum, I think the numbers are undercooked. There seem to be a few in nearly every country in Europe, especially the Nordics. There are still real ti's racing all over Europe, when I was looking for one between 1998 and 2000 I looked at five in middle Germany (I.e. didn't have to go too far). None of these cars went to the shredder. Mine was laid up from 1983 until 2006 (I.e. off the grid) and I am sure that there still are project cars and ex-racers kicking around in poor condition, but no-one is putting them on the market. In the last two Years there has been a surge in overrestored cars... Currently on mobile.de there are 2 claiming to be ti's, 20+ tii's and 7 factory Turbo's. Often though there are 3-4 ti's on sale, either in pitiful or overrestored condition, seems that no "drivers" are to be had.

Andrew

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here in Germany we have the possibility to look at the KBA how many cars of one type are registered by the gouverment. At the beginning of this year, here in germany were 81 2002 ti´s left on the road which are registered by the gouverment to drive on the road.

The sleepers are not counted and most of the cars are heavily tuned or modificated.
Best Regards

Carsten

 

1793709148_zoom_ZulassungsZahlenkurz2018.jpg.9a85b47103f93eaf112cc432f092379e.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fascinating information, thanks for posting it.  416 Baurs, 49 turbos.  An overall increase of 106 cars from the previous year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am currently restoring one, my father's original car purchased in 1971, and know of about 12 in Canada and the US. The 1970-1971 ti's are known as the North American 50 and were in fact the first and smallest production homologation race class sponsored by BMW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

What is the "North American 50"? I have the FIA homologation papers for the ti, with whom and for what series were they homologated? I thought the 68' emissions changes meant none entered the US as street cars, but they could enter otherwise? I assume the Canadian ti's did enter Canada as normally registered road vehicles because a few other cars also made it to Canada that did not make it to the US.

Andrew

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
4 hours ago, Oldtimerfahrer said:

Hi,

What is the "North American 50"? I have the FIA homologation papers for the ti, with whom and for what series were they homologated? I thought the 68' emissions changes meant none entered the US as street cars, but they could enter otherwise? I assume the Canadian ti's did enter Canada as normally registered road vehicles because a few other cars also made it to Canada that did not make it to the US.

Andrew

 

Homologation papers describe hardware allowed in any series recognizing and mandating FIA-stated level of compliance
US market: none were delivered officially to the US market through the pre-Hoffmann network which, ironically was not "official" the way we think today. Thats NOT to say they were not sold by distributors or dealers for road use, obviously there are some exceptions. No way of saying for sure if there were some rare gumshoe 20 year old working for the motorcycle dealer who sold BMW cars in the 60's and they actually bothered to stealth out such detail as a 20 year old during the flower power era, they'd be almost 70 y.o. today, and a rare bird indeed to be tracking still (or again) on '02's...if someone like that frequents the faq, they are admirably (for the 21st century) unassuming and discrete. Or just don't care any more about this kind of detail any more than anyone in the late 60's early 70's.  
The 50 were brought in to Canada specific for racing purposes, some obviously made it to the road but "the 50" did not try to skirt whatever "normal channels" existed, the Tis simply were'nt officially delivered for registered road vehicle use in North America. Same comments about normal channels and official as above.
 

Edited by dp
entered more babble

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were a number of ti that did get delivered to dealerships in Canada between 1968 and 1972.  My dad bought one NEW from Northwest Motors in Downsview (Toronto) ON.  It was delivered to Beach I think, but Dad bought it through Henry at Northwest.  It was totaled in 1974, and he bought another one to replace it.  The replacement one was sold new at Northwest and the Professor who owned it traded it back in on an Alpina tii.  We've had it since then.

He was told by Henry, the owner at Northwest, that each dealer in Canada got ONE 2002ti to sell to the public.  From what I gather, another group (could be 50...) came in specifically for racing, although this could be a mixed truth combining some specific racing versions (which I believe went through Beach) and the public versions, which could total 50. I believe there were about 20 BMW dealers in Canada in the early 70s.

Hoffman (and pre-Hoffman) didn't get any into the US because there were no emissions controls on the cars.  I'm not aware of any that came directly to the US when new, most came inform Canada of via grey market US service members returning form Germany.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/29/2018 at 10:22 PM, jp02ti said:

There were a number of ti that did get delivered to dealerships in Canada between 1968 and 1972.  My dad bought one NEW from Northwest Motors in Downsview (Toronto) ON.  It was delivered to Beach I think, but Dad bought it through Henry at Northwest.  It was totaled in 1974, and he bought another one to replace it.  The replacement one was sold new at Northwest and the Professor who owned it traded it back in on an Alpina tii.  We've had it since then.

He was told by Henry, the owner at Northwest, that each dealer in Canada got ONE 2002ti to sell to the public.  From what I gather, another group (could be 50...) came in specifically for racing, although this could be a mixed truth combining some specific racing versions (which I believe went through Beach) and the public versions, which could total 50. I believe there were about 20 BMW dealers in Canada in the early 70s.

Hoffman (and pre-Hoffman) didn't get any into the US because there were no emissions controls on the cars.  I'm not aware of any that came directly to the US when new, most came inform Canada of via grey market US service members returning form Germany.

I've been reviewing some older Roundel magazines where folks would write in asking about the quantities of BMW's produced.   Recently ran across another Canadian (they mentioned your parents) and believe they wrote (40) 2002ti's were imported to Canada. 

 

Found it.  June 74 Roundel page 12  Letter from Michael Lenhardt in Scarborough Ontario.  [President of the BMW Car Club in Canada].

 

Funny part of his letter:  "But Richard Poole would not drive anything but a TI and was lucky enough to find a second one out of this group of forty."  

 

IMG_2114_zps54ff53c6.jpg

 

IMG_2116_zps65c44721.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is interesting! I do 40-50 to be a low number. Although maybe its possible that at least half survived?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now