Cheapest way to 200 hp?

[zacktho]

Hi everyone!

 

I'm a newcomer here. Been searching the forums for a while now. I don't have an '02 yet, but I am trying to plan as much as I can out before diving into this venture. 

 

Here's some info. The car that I end up going with will end up being somewhat of a budget build. The car will not be a daily driver, but I would like it to be fairly reliable. And, I want it to have some excitement. I (probably) won't be racing it. I just want something that will be a fun ride and has some umph when I give it some gas. I currently drive a stock '12 WRX as my daily. Lastly, I want to keep things in the BMW family, so no S2000 engines.

 

I plan on doing the majority of the work myself. I built a 65 Mustang from the ground up a few years ago, so I have the tools and a decent amount of DIY knowledge. The only thing I plan on leaving to the pros is tuning the engine. And possibly the turbo stuff too. But, I would definitely like to learn how to do it. 

 

What direction should I take this hypothetical project? I've been reading a lot on the m20 swap, which is typically known as the most HP for your dollar. But, I'm also really intrigued by the turbo m10 builds. I really like the idea of keeping it a 4 banger. If I were to allot $2000ish for the engine, should I just go for the m20 swap? Or, would it be just as good to rebuild and turbo the m10? I'm open to all the ideas and suggestions as I am obviously new to this party. 

[Simeon]

$2,000 isn’t going to get you much, especially if you get anyone to work on it with you. Dropping in a clean but untouched M20 might be all you can manage for that. 

[Mike Self]

If you're gonna stick with a BMW engine, why not turbo an M44 from a late E36 318 or a Z3?

 

Or wait awhile 'till the price comes down on the newest BMW 2 liter twin turbo motors--228 to 240 hp out of the box.  But you're gonna have to upgrade your suspension and especially your brakes to handle that much power.  

 

Truth be told, I suspect that 140-150 hp in a car as light as a 2002 will give you plenty of grins 'n thrills...

 

mike

[Dudeland]

I am kinda in the same boat. I am looking for 180ish hp. If you get up over 200 in my humble opinion you will want to cage it a bit. As it can get squirrely.


The drivetrain is stressed at that hp, and you will want a lsd etc to hold it to the ground.

You can get there for at least a short period with an eBay turbo kit, although you should bring a dustpan to sweep up the bottom end.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jrhone]

Cheapest way is M20 swap. That’s about 180 stock.  Add a few mods and you are at 200hp.  Engines are cheap and readily available.  The swap has been done many times.  

Edited June 8, 2018 by jrhone

[AustrianVespaGuy]

21 minutes ago, mike said:

Truth be told, I suspect that 140-150 hp in a car as light as a 2002 will give you plenty of grins 'n thrills...

You say you won't be racing it and want it fairly reliable, so take Mike's advice.  I'm guessing you don't have a lot of seat time in a well-sorted 2002, but a good suspension setup in a lightly modified M10 that gets you up close to the 150 HP range is as fun of a car as you can get for weekend mountain roads runs and some occasional auto-crossing.  I've owned a '76 911, '03 WRX, an E36 M3, daily an E39 540i, and have often driven friends' S2000s and E39 M5s, so I feel I'm rather qualified in this opinion and put my hand on my heart and stand by it!

But if what you really want an M20 on a budget, I feel it would be prudent to check out E30 325s. . . Not saying I have anything against M20s in 2002s, but the E30 route is certainly simpler and cheaper, and I feel one should 'get to know' the 2002 with the M10 first, and then decide if/what swap would be a suitable fit. Just one man's opinion!

[dasfrogger]

as said above, 2k isn't going to get you far. how much are you budgeting for the rest of the car - will definitely need to upgrade suspension and brakes if you're adding extra power.

 

you mentioned that you want a reliable car, on a budget that is fast. Reminds me of the old cliche "cheap, fast, reliable : pick two"

 

The best piece of advice that i've seen time and time again is to get the suspension and brakes sorted out, then drive the snot out of the car stock before adding power. It seems like the folks that get to know their cars in stock form have had more fun over the long term and have been able to make really good decisions on what exactly they want out of the car.

 

Either way, best of luck and have lots of fun! these cars are incredible!

[jrhone]

Great advice here.  Full race M10s are about 200hp and they would be no fun on the street.  A 150hp M10 is fun and get the brakes and suspension sorted and it’s alot of grins.  But that will cost you more than 2k.  For engine you will want a cam, carb (or carbs) maybe Pistons depending on whats in there and their condition, ignition upgrades and exhaust.  The good thing about it is you can do a lot over time.  No need to dump all that in at once.    The formula most guys have that gets them close to 150 is:

high compresion pistons 9.5:1 or 10:1

292 cam 

weber 38 carb or dual Weber dcoe 40 or 45

123 Tune distributor or MSD or crane ignition

tii exhaust manifold or headers

 

there are some other options out there for some parts but thats an overview.  You can go fuel injection as well but that needs a engine management system and all the FI bits so it will probably be a bit more costly. If you look at parts alone on that’s probably over $2k.  You can get some of that stuff used and in good condition.

[dasfrogger]

2 minutes ago, jrhone said:

 

there are some other options out there for some parts but thats an overview.  You can go fuel injection as well but that needs a engine management system and all the FI bits so it will probably be a bit more costly. If you look at parts alone on that’s probably over $2k.  You can get some of that stuff used and in good condition.

 

 

Of course its always cheaper to DIY and assemble on one's own, but, as a reference point a Metric Mechanic motor that will pump out 150hp costs just under 7k.

[AceAndrew]

As most on here will confirm, I am a huge proponent of the M20'02 setup.  However, I need to interject some realism.

 

A fresh properly-rebuilt stock M20 will yield a maximum of 162-165 horsepower at the wheels (a very healthy m10 tii will yield around 115whp on the same dyno under similar conditions). This is coming from building a number of Spec-E30 engines (bored half over, new pistons, rings, balance everything, etc. $5,000 minimum).  A "budget stroker" M20 will get you into the 180whp zone depending on what you do.  

 

A no-budget M20 2.9L "ultimate-street-stroker" setup with ITB's or DCOE's can get you up over 220whp (keep in mind this is still "street-friendly" compression/fuel-needs).  Just yesterday I had one at the dyno that was at 243whp and hungry for more with maxed-out injectors.  However, while this setup is my hands-down favorite, it is on-par with the cost of an S14 setup (I just prefer the single-cam setup in an 02).  

 

In terms of "cheap hp", your best bet is a stock-displacement M20 turbo, M10 turbo, or an M42 turbo.  Although you may find a mildly-tuned NA M20 offers plenty of thrills.  Your $2,000 budget needs to be tossed into your neighbors pool if you want the car to be reliable.

------------------------------

 

As a rebuttal to some of the other opinions on this thread.  My personal experience shows that the 2002 chassis can take up into the low 200's before you start really needing to hack up the car and start losing the 2002-"character".  In fact, the 2002 feels most like a 2002 should be (at least to me) when you are around those numbers with a single-cam-six engine.  I do recommend stitch welding a lot of the seams though, it really helps.  Especially on a roundie chassis.

To qualify my opinion... well I kinda spend a lot of time around cars.  If you'd like to chat, just shoot me a PM with your phone number.

 

--------------------------------

As an addendum, I had two different clients once:

 

One came from owning modern sports cars.  He bought a nice 2002, we refreshed the suspension, but he became pretty bored with the car (even though we did some fun canyon drives).  We came to the point of looking at the engine.  He debated rebuilding the M10 or going with an M20 swap.  After thinking a while, he decided on the M10 and I spec'd a true street-hotrod M10 for him (9.5:1 comp. 292 cam, 40DCOE's), basically a twin of the Clarion 2002 build you can see reviewed all over youtube.  The total build was around $8k-$9k.  After having done the break-in and tuning, the client drove the car for several months before confiding that he felt he should have done the swap in the first place.  The car was just disappointing for him, especially after he drove a mutual friend's swapped car and said it was exactly what he had wanted.

Conversely, I had an older gentleman who was so over-the-moon for that same type of setup in his 2002 that he kept coming by to say thank you, and to go for drives.  You never saw him without a huge grin on his face, it was infectious.  

This is to say, above all, be honest to yourself about what you want.  We all have opinions, but they are worth precisely what you paid for them.  Find people local to you who are willing to give you a ride, the proof is in the pudding.

and welcome to 2002's, hope you stay a while!

-Andrew

Edited June 9, 2018 by AceAndrew

[Son of Marty]

I'm with Andrew on the m20 swap the one thing that's not mentioned about the m20 is the much fatter 6 cyl torque band that makes it so nice for street driving and in the twisties.

[RenaissanceMan]

Not sure if this adds anything of value to the conversation, but IMHO, you get to the point of diminishing returns with respect to fun factor once you pass a certain hp threshold... I'm as died-in-the-wool a go-fast guy as anybody, but when you have too much power in a small, light chassis, it can go overboard. I have driven a bunch of motor swapped cars, and bulit a few, myself including a motor swapped GTS2 racer and have to say that my current pretty well-tuned 2002 with nothing but a 40/40 Weber and a tii manifold is just as much fun to drive as my E30 with full E36 M3 drivetrain and a bunch of go-fast parts on it. Now if you love melting tires, I guess none of this applies, but it's a blast when you have to really drive a car hard to get the most out of it, like a 2002.

[kbmb02]

Data points:

 

With good grip on 6" tires and approaching 165 HP at the wheels in our race cars, we're beginning to see parts break; rear hubs, trailing arms, front sway bar tabs tearing, giubos, etc. In my opinion, putting a big HP engine swap in a 2002 with reliability and safety requires thought, planning, some upgrades and a sufficient budget.

 

More: I believe the 2002 is a handling car; it will teach you how to drive with momentum and carry speed through corners. Sure, there are some who like to light up the tires in 3rd gear on the highway (and, sometimes, to slop through turns, then point it straight and stomp the go pedal). I've not seen an original ad for the BMW 2002 which references drag racing.

 

Me, I'm a fan of the M10, carbureted. Some of my favorite cars to drive have been early cars with a single barrel downdraft; manual choke, drive by rod (not by wire), stick shift, original suspension, smaller tires - the result is an experience connected to the road and the car.

 

To each his/her own, of course. -KB

[zacktho]

Wow you guys are quick with the responses here haha. I like it. Let me clarify some things.

 

I plan on allotting around $10k for the whole car. I had $3k-$5k budgeted to purchase the car, and the rest goes towards restoring it/modifying it. I only said $2000 because that sounded somewhat reasonable for an engine upgrade. Again, being a newbie at this, I'm just trying to find relevant threads on here and estimating.

 

And you guys are right, I have never driven one before. I live in Virginia Beach, Virginia and I'm not sure if I've ever even seen an '02 at a car show or anything around here. I joined the local '02 group on Facebook recently, so hopefully they will be able to help me out a little. 

 

From what I'm reading, 200 hp is "too much" for this car. So, if I'm not going to shoot for high HP, would I be better off just upgrading the M10 similar to what RentaissanceMan is saying?

[zacktho]

45 minutes ago, RenaissanceMan said:

Not sure if this adds anything of value to the conversation, but IMHO, you get to the point of diminishing returns with respect to fun factor once you pass a certain hp threshold... I'm as died-in-the-wool a go-fast guy as anybody, but when you have too much power in a small, light chassis, it can go overboard. I have driven a bunch of motor swapped cars, and bulit a few, myself including a motor swapped GTS2 racer and have to say that my current pretty well-tuned 2002 with nothing but a 40/40 Weber and a tii manifold is just as much fun to drive as my E30 with full E36 M3 drivetrain and a bunch of go-fast parts on it. Now if you love melting tires, I guess none of this applies, but it's a blast when you have to really drive a car hard to get the most out of it, like a 2002.

 

BTW, I'm a fan of yours and I've been following your builds for a while on Instagram. I followed you for the bass vids, but you helped me get hooked on 2002's. 

 

I like the sound of having a fun/drivable car over a tire burning, intimidating-to-drive car. My Mustang is the tire shredder. Don't really have a need for another one of those.