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To store or restore an '02 Targa


AlpineTarga02
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41 minutes ago, AceAndrew said:

 

That is to say, there is no right answer.  What do you want to do?

I want to restore and keep it but I'm catching flak from my wife as she wants it sold and gone. Either way, I need an idea what it's really worth as is vs restored as well as the cost of a full resto. There are so few of these left that I'm having trouble finding accurate $ info online.

By the way, the car's been up on blocks in my garage since I parked it there 25 years ago.

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OK, to break it down then.

 

1) As Is Value: we're going to need to see pictures for any chance at this.  The more the better.

 

2) Restored Value: Targa 2002:

    Restored to a concours level, I could see 60-80 for the right buyer.  Targa's take a bit getting used to, so the right buyer bit is the big variable.

 

3) Restored to a concours level (I'm talking bare-metal, quality shop [WerkShop, CoupeKing, Sport Car Restoration, VSR]):  Could easily approach/pass 100k depending on work needed.  

 

*Please note that changing any of the above variables would mean throwing the above thoughts out the window.

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11 minutes ago, AceAndrew said:

OK, to break it down then.

 

1) As Is Value: we're going to need to see pictures for any chance at this.  The more the better.

 

2) Restored Value: Targa 2002:

    Restored to a concours level, I could see 60-80 for the right buyer.  Targa's take a bit getting used to, so the right buyer bit is the big variable.

 

3) Restored to a concours level (I'm talking bare-metal, quality shop [WerkShop, CoupeKing, Sport Car Restoration, VSR]):  Could easily approach/pass 100k depending on work needed.  

 

*Please note that changing any of the above variables would mean throwing the above thoughts out the window.

OK. Will have to shoot photos. If it will take 100k for concours quality resto, that's out of the question.

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Referring back to Andrew's first post, there are no right (or wrong) answers. 

 

Does the 'restoration' need to be a $100K special? If it's been stored well for 25 years this could consist of replacing all rubber components, going through the drive train and suspension plus attention to the paint with a clay bar and polish. Not really a restoration but you are likely to have a nice driver and some fun along the way. 

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My two cents:    Strictly the philosophical side of things.  And this is just my opinion, which will be different from almost everyone else on this site.   

 

Restore side: 

Restoring cars is incredibly therapeutic.  There is much swearing and sweat and a little blood letting, but the gratification phase, driving around in an amazing car that most people have never seen before, is incredible.  Even your wife will have fun during that part.  And the learning part is really, really, really good for your brain.  

 

Investment.  Although you can't really think of restoring a car as a money-making venture, you can at least think of it as a potential break-even venture.  A hobby that breaks even.  There really are very few of those.  Perhaps the best news is that, unlike the car you or your wife probably drives every day, a classic car you restore will not depreciate.  The right car, like a BMW cabriolet, will most likely only appreciate.  Don't bank on that, but it is probably OK to use in your "keep" discussion.   

 

Experience.  If this is your first restoration, a BMW 2002 is really one of the best cars you could be restoring.  Parts (except for the cabriolet-specific parts, which is a bit of a wild-card) are relatively easy to find and there is a ridiculous wealth of knowledge, advice and plenty of reference material here on this site to help you.  Honestly, the BMW community is a community of true enthusiasts.  They want to help you (this lengthy response is a pretty good case in point...).  And taking your car to the events where you and others can show off and share can honestly be great fun.       

 

Relationship.  Think about this for a minute.   If you are forced to sell the car and you don't want to, you will probably regret it for a long, long time.  You WILL blame your wife for this and you may resent her for it.  Anyone who is/was married probably knows what kind of damage resentment can do to a marriage.  Even if you sell the car, don't let it damage yours.  

 

After you read the "sell side" items below, If you still really want to restore the car, sit down with your wife and explain the points above.  If she doesn't understand it, she will eventually.  And hopefully, at some magical point, she will agree and let you do what you really want. Maybe not this time with this car, but eventually.  

 

Sell side: (or just the practical reality parts of any car restoration)

 

Kids.  Cars can't and should not compete with kids.  Especially girls, who are probably being raised primarily by your wife.  (Nothing negative intended by this, but the practical matter is that it is more difficult to get girls interested in cars than it is to get boys interested in cars.  I have 2 girls.)     Kids need and will probably take nearly every minute of your non-working time for about 15 years so adjust your projects accordingly.  My youngest daughter is now a senior in high-school and I just sold the boat and started restoring cars again after about 15 years. (A boat is a GREAT all family quality-of-life improver until the kids get to be about 16 and want to do their own thing....)    If you have boys, the game changes a little as they will probably want to learn about cars from you, but that doesn't work if your car is at the body shop or mechanic's all the time.   

 

Money.  It takes a decent amount of money to restore a car properly.  I've found that for most cars, the cost of the restoration is slightly more than the purchase price of the car being restored and that is assuming the car is not a basket case and you are doing a lot of the work. (triple that for basket cases or if you plan to just drop the car off at a shop, cut it in half if the car is purchased already restored.)  This also depends on the area where you live and the type of vendors you hire (i.e. don't use a high-end soup-to-nuts restoration shop if all you want is a couple of rust spots media blasted.)  To do a car really, really well, the restoration will be more like 150% of the cost of the car itself.  This varies a lot by car, your experience, and quality of restoration.  A cabriolet deserves a top-notch restoration.  If you do something that the next buyer will just have to re-do because it is not up to par, the value of that work is nearly 0.    Put a budget together.  Include a very large contingency.  

 

Time.  It will take much. much longer than you think to restore a car.  At the most basic level, for every hour you spend in, over or under a car, plan on spending 2-3 hours on research and buying parts.  I've had simple projects that I thought would take a month actually take a year or more.  The more complicated or rare the car, the longer the restoration will take.  This can be a good thing from a budget perspective but a very bad thing if you are trying to make a deadline so your car can be at a particular event.  For basic planning, double the time you think something will take.  If there is learning involved, triple it.   

 

Space and equipment.  This is usually a resolvable thing but it takes money.  If you are living in an apartment and don't have a garage for your car, you are going to have a really, really bad time.  Same thing if you live in a condo or pretty much any time you don't have an available garage slot in or next-door to your home that you can get to easily. Self-storage space big enough for a car is expensive and it isn't usually space that allows you to work on your car.  You may be able to find a multi-car or classic storage facility that charges less than a self-storage place but you still won't be able to work on your car much there.  I have 8 cars, 3 garage spaces, a 3-car driveway (without shuffling) and 2 slots in a drive-in multi-car storage facility. We rotate the cars around by season and project.  My wife ALWAYS gets a garage space for her SUV in the winter. 

As for equipment, you will need quite a bit.  I probably have $5-6k invested in tools, jacks, etc.  I do not have a lift but I have some pretty hefty jack-stands and I have pretty much every air and electric tool you can think of.  Most people don't think too much about the tools they buy because they are investments, but at some point, you have to think about their impact on your budget.  

 

At first glance, the sell side seems to heavily outweigh the keep side.  That really depends on your own situation.  My objective is to make sure you go in with your eyes open.  

 

Some of this is probably really obvious to you but some of it might not be.  Hopefully, it is helpful to you and anybody else in your position.   

 

Take care! 

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hodgepodge
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Everything Hodgepodge said, in spades, especially the relationship issues.  They are the most important. 

 

Read, re-read, and digest Memoirs of a Hack Mechanic...good ideas of what to expect, what to do/not do, mental approaches, philosophy of the working-on-a-2002 thing, and reasons (you have never thought of) why we work on our 2002s let alone restore them.

 

Regardless of your decision(s), we got your back...from a distance.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Simeon said:

If it's been stored well for 25 years this could consist of replacing all rubber components, going through the drive train and suspension plus attention to the paint with a clay bar and polish. Not really a restoration but you are likely to have a nice driver and some fun along the way. 

Going in, I expect to replace tires, belt, plugs, points, plug wires, gaskets, battery, soft top, fluids and carpet but there are other details like drop/clean the tank, rebuild the carb, rebuild wheel & master brake cylinders. No doubt, other demons will show up, whether from rodents, sitting in 1 place for so long or Baur's design for routing rainwater (a notorious source for rust). Assuming I will find rust and have metalwork done, why not respray the entire car? Anyhow, I can do much of the work but this is a long term project so I will bring in a professional for at least some items to speed things up and get them right (like the metal/paintwork) and I'm not sure what this will run for quality work.

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12 hours ago, jgerock said:

I would first check with Blunt to see if the targa specific rubber and trim items are still available. How about a few pics of your sleeping beauty?

When I can. My wife's in the hospital now for a surgical procedure. I'm typing while waiting for laundry to finish. It will be a few days before I can get to the garage and shoot the pics.

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43 minutes ago, 2002#2 said:

Everything Hodgepodge said, in spades, especially the relationship issues.  They are the most important. 

 

Read, re-read, and digest Memoirs of a Hack Mechanic...good ideas of what to expect, what to do/not do, mental approaches, philosophy of the working-on-a-2002 thing, and reasons (you have never thought of) why we work on our 2002s let alone restore them.

 

Regardless of your decision(s), we got your back...from a distance.

 

 

Thanks.

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5 hours ago, Hodgepodge said:

My two cents:    Strictly the philosophical side of things.  And this is just my opinion, which will be different from almost everyone else on this site.   

 

Restore side: 

Restoring cars is incredibly therapeutic.  There is much swearing and sweat and a little blood letting, but the gratification phase, driving around in an amazing car that most people have never seen before, is incredible.  Even your wife will have fun during that part.  And the learning part is really, really, really good for your brain.  

 

Investment.  Although you can't really think of restoring a car as a money-making venture, you can at least think of it as a potential break-even venture.  A hobby that breaks even.  There really are very few of those.  Perhaps the best news is that, unlike the car you or your wife probably drives every day, a classic car you restore will not depreciate.  The right car, like a BMW cabriolet, will most likely only appreciate.  Don't bank on that, but it is probably OK to use in your "keep" discussion.   

 

Experience.  If this is your first restoration, a BMW 2002 is really one of the best cars you could be restoring.  Parts (except for the cabriolet-specific parts, which is a bit of a wild-card) are relatively easy to find and there is a ridiculous wealth of knowledge, advice and plenty of reference material here on this site to help you.  Honestly, the BMW community is a community of true enthusiasts.  They want to help you (this lengthy response is a pretty good case in point...).  And taking your car to the events where you and others can show off and share can honestly be great fun.       

 

Relationship.  Thank about this for a minute.   If you are forced to sell the car and you don't want to, you will probably regret it for a long, long time.  You WILL blame your wife for this and you may resent her for it.  Anyone who is/was married probably knows what kind of damage resentment can do to a marriage.  Even if you sell the car, don't let it damage yours.  

 

After you read the "sell side" items below, If you still really want to restore the car, sit down with your wife and explain the points above.  If she doesn't understand it, she will eventually.  And hopefully, at some magical point, she will agree and let you do what you really want. Maybe not this time with this car, but eventually.  

 

Sell side: (or just the practical reality parts of any car restoration)

 

Kids.  Cars can't and should not compete with kids.  Especially girls, who are probably being raised primarily by your wife.  (Nothing negative intended by this, but the practical matter is that it is more difficult to get girls interested in cars than it is to get boys interested in cars.  I have 2 girls.)     Kids need and will probably take nearly every minute of your non-working time for about 15 years so adjust your projects accordingly.  My youngest daughter is now a senior in high-school and I just sold the boat and started restoring cars again after about 15 years. (A boat is a GREAT all family quality-of-life improver until the kids get to be about 16 and want to do their own thing....)    If you have boys, the game changes a little as they will probably want to learn about cars from you, but that doesn't work if your car is at the body shop or mechanic's all the time.   

 

Money.  It takes a decent amount of money to restore a car properly.  I've found that for most cars, the cost of the restoration is slightly more than the purchase price of the car being restored and that is assuming the car is not a basket case and you are doing a lot of the work. (triple that for basket cases or if you plan to just drop the car off at a shop, cut it in half if the car is purchased already restored.)  This also depends on the area where you live and the type of vendors you hire (i.e. don't use a high-end soup-to-nuts restoration shop if all you want is a couple of rust spots media blasted.)  To do a car really, really well, the restoration will be more like 150% of the cost of the car itself.  This varies a lot by car, your experience, and quality of restoration.  A cabriolet deserves a top-notch restoration.  If you do something that the next buyer will just have to re-do because it is not up to par, the value of that work is nearly 0.    Put a budget together.  Include a very large contingency.  

 

Time.  It will take much. much longer than you think to restore a car.  At the most basic level, for every hour you spend in, over or under a car, plan on spending 2-3 hours on research and buying parts.  I've had simple projects that I thought would take a month actually take a year or more.  The more complicated or rare the car, the longer the restoration will take.  This can be a good thing from a budget perspective but a very bad thing if you are trying to make a deadline so your car can be at a particular event.  For basic planning, double the time you think something will take.  If there is learning involved, triple it.   

 

Space and equipment.  This is usually a resolvable thing but it takes money.  If you are living in an apartment and don't have a garage for your car, you are going to have a really, really bad time.  Same thing if you live in a condo or pretty much any time you don't have an available garage slot in or next-door to your home that you can get to easily. Self-storage space big enough for a car is expensive and it isn't usually space that allows you to work on your car.  You may be able to find a multi-car or classic storage facility that charges less than a self-storage place but you still won't be able to work on your car much there.  I have 8 cars, 3 garage spaces, a 3-car driveway (without shuffling) and 2 slots in a drive-in multi-car storage facility. We rotate the cars around by season and project.  My wife ALWAYS gets a garage space for her SUV in the winter. 

As for equipment, you will need quite a bit.  I probably have $5-6k invested in tools, jacks, etc.  I do not have a lift but I have some pretty hefty jack-stands and I have pretty much every air and electric tool you can think of.  Most people don't think too much about the tools they buy because they are investments, but at some point, you have to think about their impact on your budget.  

 

At first glance, the sell side seems to heavily outweigh the keep side.  That really depends on your own situation.  My objective is to make sure you go in with your eyes open.  

 

Some of this is probably really obvious to you but some of it might not be.  Hopefully, it is helpful to you and anybody else in your position.   

 

Take care! 

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scott, great advice!

 

Restore side: I totally agree. 1st car I ever owned was a '65 'Stang coupe that was rear ended. I cut my teeth rebuilding that car and did my first arc cutting on a donor to procure a new rear clip. Almost started a forest fire from the undercoating melting and burning... 

 

Investment? Possibly but I'm not banking on that. I'd do it because I LOVE the car and driving it is so much fun. If I drove and totaled it, that would be a major drag were I planning to recoup my costs.

 

Experience: One of the things I enjoyed when a member of BMWCCA was the friendships I developed with fellow enthusiasts that also loved 02's. Total agreement.

 

Relationship: I've owned the car longer than I've been married and there was full disclosure of my car interests before the ring went on the finger.

 

Kids: I have 2 girls aged 9 and 11 and 2 grown step sons. Both girls are already planning what they will be driving when older. The 11 yr old wants a Jeep Cherokee and the 9 yr old a Maserati (neither will happen for various reasons).

 

Money/Time/Space: To me, this is the real issue as I'm unsure how long to expect the resto to take and what will be the cost. Still, space is an issue. I have the Targa and an 02 parts car for the Targa. The parts car is in the carport and it's a dusty primered eyesore (to her) that she hates seeing everyday. If I move the parts car into the garage, there will be no room to work on the Targa and I keep telling her I need it "just in case."

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