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Tii mission creep and questions


GoldLion
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Hi everyone, it's been a while.  This will be a bit long.  Grab a cup of tea.

 

My story begins as follows:  Vera is my March 1975 (Euro) tii, Australian delivered. Since a rejuvenation after purchase (new springs, shocks, suspension bushings, drive shaft bearing, window and door rubber, front caliper rebuild and more recently rear brake cylinders/shoes/drums and steering box rebuild) she hasn't missed a beat.  I did, however, note oil leaks from the valve cover, lower front cover and front crank seal on purchase but have let these rest.

She's been my daily driver for the last couple of months. In this time I noticed a squeal at around 3000 rpm when cold.  Searching the forum led me to believe it was either contamination from the oil leak or perhaps the alternator bushings.  I degreased the engine and changed the belt.  The squeal (now a chirp) came back in a couple of days and so:

Initial Task: replace alternator bushings - I pulled the alternator, old bushings were goo.  Replaced with urethane (I used a vice on one side of the washer assembly under the circlip and channel lock pliers on the other side to compress the bushing enough to get the circlip back on - if you are doing this job you should hopefully understand what I mean).

 

Whilst under the car I couldn't get past the amount of black oily filth that was everywhere.  I had anticipated needing to change the crank seal and valve cover seal so already had gasket sets for the head and the block.  Time for mission creep.

Mission creep 1: replace front crank seal  - Using the 'engine in car technique' described by Paul from Maximillion

I pulled the radiator and went to town on the crank pulley nut with a breaker bar.  Engine in 4th, handbrake on, wife on the brakes but I couldn't get enough room to really lever the breaker bar due to the water pump, so I decided to just quickly pull that (I had a replacement gasket).  Promptly snapped off two of the little bolts into the lower timing cover, luckily not the 'through' bolts which go into the block.  So now I had to remove the lower timing cover.

 

Mission creep 2: remove timing covers -  I wasn't too sad about this as it would give me the opportunity to replace the cover gaskets.  I first purchased a cordless impact wrench, my new favourite tool, and had the crank pulley nut off in about three seconds. I didn't know if I was crying out of joy or frustration after this.  Engine at TDC, I pulled the crank pulley and the KF belt (a couple of teeth missing on belt) then it was on to the Kugelfischer pulley.  The plastic Kugelfischer pulley.  This one only has two holes for a puller to grasp and they are more central than the aluminium one so the inner lip of the cover interferes with some pullers (mine) and I wanted to use the inner side of the holes to reduce distortion.  I used a dremel to cut mine down to fit:

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note the two central holes which ruined my day

 

I got the puller on there and the plastic/nylon/Devil's Polymer just distorted terribly, and I mean really bent out.  No movement of the pulley.  I got a big screwdriver behind it and gently levered.  Nothing.  I searched the forum and didn't find a solution so I figured I would just get some heat onto it and accept that I would have to purchase a new pulley.  Very sad, as the original one was in perfect condition.  I applied some heat and BLAMMO it cracked almost circumferentially.  I used a dremel to cut the remainder off.  Now I have a situation where I can't get any puller onto the remainder of the pulley:

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Please avert your eyes from the scratches created by the screwdriver.  I can't avert mine and will cringe enough for all of you.

 

After all this I still couldn't wiggle the lower cover (yes i had removed the oil pan bolts) and figured it was stuck to the pan gasket.  I needed to clear my head of the timing cover/pulley issue so

Mission creep 3: Oil pan gasket.  3a - remove air accumulator/throttle body/intake runners - I knew I had to raise the engine to get the oil pan out so I decided to pull the intake assembly off to allow for extra manoeuvring and also allow me to replace the gaskets, the kf/throttle linkage (had these parts already) and just generally have a little look around.  Those who are about to do this in a later model tii with aluminium runners should note that the runner for cylinder 1 will not come off easily.  I advise undoing the fuel return valve at the rear of the KF pump (looks like a male fuel line connector but secrets lie within -don't drop those secrets into your engine bay), which will allow the runner to pull off.  Otherwise it is a real hassle to get the air accumulator unmounted.

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most of the wetness here is penetrant. the oil leak isn't that bad! note the intake runner obstructed by the return fuel line/valve.

 

Having got all that stuff off I was surprised at the amount of carbon deposit in the intake manifold.  Searches and conversation with Raj (username Rapandi) led me to believe that this was probably normal for a 40 year old engine.  I took some photos into the manifold and these showed an interesting finding (interesting to me anyway):

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cylinder 4

 

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cylinder 3

 

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cylinder 2

 

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cylinder 1

 

Cylinder three seemed to have uneven carbon deposits around the intake valve whereas the others where nice and clean.

 

3b - remove oil pan - Drain the oil first.  I remembered, I hope you do too.  I removed the distributer cap and rotor and unplugged the leads from the spade terminal on the distributer to prevent stretching.  Loosened the transmission mounting bolt and the engine mounting bolts then attached my hoist to the front mounting point, having also replaced numerous other bolts into the lower timing cover to distribute any forces that might have been produced.  I raised the engine without difficulty, monitoring the gap between firewall and distributer and nervously glancing at the number four injector line.   If I planned to remove the engine, I would reinstall the number four intake runner to protect that line for sure.  Don't forget to secure the engine from below with some timber between it and the mounts. Undid the remainder of the oil pan bolts (three had already come off for the timing chain cover) with some difficulty NO HANDS LAND LIES BETWEEN ENGINE AND FRONT SUBFRAME.  Pulled the oil pan without difficulty and noted quite severe slack in the oil pump chain - easily striking the front and rear strikable points and generally flopping around.  This did actually delight me as I have has a slap at idle and I suspect this will be the cause.  My timing chain is new (2 years) and is taught like a tiger with no stretch when lifted on the apex of the cam sprocket so that's not involved.  So another mission - just have to get a new oil pump chain and sprocket and Bob's your Mother's Brother.

 

Now the lower timing cover is finally loose BUT is getting hung up on the KF pulley remnants

 

In Closing:

 

Tips which may help you if you do this:

- Urethane alternator bushings can be compressed with a vice on one side and channel locks on the other to allow for circlip application.

- Use plenty of penetrant (PB blaster or your choice)

- An impact wrench will make the job much MUCH easier and probably would have prevented my snapping the water pump bolts.

- If you are doing the whole shebang, not just mission creeping, then seriously consider pulling the engine. LEAVE THE AIR ACCUMULATOR ON if you do, to protect the injection line to cylinder 4 from the rear chain - the rear hoist point is directly below and chain may strike the line when the engine is angled up to remove.

- Don't have a plastic KF pulley

- Remove the fuel return check valve from the rear of the KF pump to allow intake runner 1 to slide off easily and allow easy removal of air accumulator.

- Fiddly oil pan bolts can often be reached from above if you can't reach them from below but beware the NO HANDS LAND.

- Don't think that this is going to take a short time.  If frustration is getting a hold of you, walk away for a while and text Raj.  Don't forget that these cars are awesome.

 

Questions:

- If I cut down the KF pulley remnants to the metal will there be enough space for me to get the cover over it?

- Will I then be able to get a puller onto the back of the pulley remnants?

- Do you think that the different pattern of carbon deposits in the entryway of cylinder three might suggest that the injector for 3 is a little defective i.e.: the spray pattern is not conical and is thus not cleaning off the carbon?

 

All the best everyone.  If you made it all the way through this post then my thanks.

Any thoughts regarding the above questions would be appreciated and any questions from you will be answered to the best of my ability.

 

Daniel

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by GoldLion
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No answers here, but you had me at "mission creep".  I wasnt sure why you tried to pull the KFish pully, as that seemed to be where things went properly pear shaped on you.

 

Good tip on the fuel return line, though male end of mine is metal IIRC.  I've pulled the #1 runner quite a few times when I was messing w the v-screw a couple years ago.  Getting the bottom nuts on/off on a hot engine is also a bag of fun.

 

I wish I could offer more than just encouragement, but that's all I've got.

 

PS - +1 on the cordless impact socket

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Nice story :)

 

A) How was your compression check? Did it indicate valve or ring issues? ;-) Proceed with the motor accordingly. 

ii) I'd think a bit more heat and you could burn I mean melt the rest of the plastic pulley off.

3) Send the injectors off for flow testing.

IV) Ensure your cold start valve is not leaking.

5) Say hi to rapandi for me.

 

Cheers,

 

Ray

Edited by ray_
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6 hours ago, GoldLion said:

Do you think that the different pattern of carbon deposits in the entryway of cylinder three might suggest that the injector for 3 is a little defective i.e.: the spray pattern is not conical and is thus not cleaning off the carbon?

 

 

First off...welcome to the "DIY Tii Engine Maintenance Club".  Sorry about your KF pulley.  I have only worked with the alloy ones.  No help here.

 

Unless you have compression problems I'd say the carbon in your intake side is from poor tuning of the tii.  Unburnt fuel, backfiring, pre-ignition...    Nothing a good cleaning, sealing and full reset of the KF fuel/air and ignition system can't fix.   

 

The injectors are pretty robust. Once you have it all back together, add some injector cleaner to your fuel and take the car for a good run at 4000rpm. IMHO: Likely your injectors are fine.  But Ray is right.  Send them out for electro-static cleaning and testing.  I've paid $25 ea. for that service.  I've yet to have a bad injector.

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Yes, mission creep and Mr. Murphy are close cousins.

Hopefully this didn't happen, but the injector pulley photos look to me like the pulley nut is still holding the pulley onto the pump shaft. It shouldn't be there while pulling the pulley. Perhaps you backed it off and it doesn't show well in the photos.

If you get really desperate and decide to take the dremel to the pulley hub, cut into the key so you miss the pump shaft. Keys are replaceable. And, +1 on Ray_'s suggestion of heating the pulley remnants to help separate them from the hub. The metal hub will absorb heat much better without the plastic.

One more nod for injector testing. Number 3 intake does look suspicious.

Good luck with the project.

 

 

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6 hours ago, echappe said:

pull the engine and overhaul it!

+1, it's 42 years old and it's due. Speaking of "mission creep", be prepared for while the motor's out, you might as well repaint the engine bay, new clutch, refresh the front subframe, etc... , am I right fellow 02 owners???  Been there, done that and now I'm prepared to do it for my E30 (rear suspension bushings) and I'm thinking of while it's out....

 

G-Man

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Oh Mission Creep.... my old friend!

 

I remember there was this one time, when I had an oil pressure relief valve occasionally stick on the F Bomb...

 

I'll now hog up the bandwidth with photos to show how bad the creep can be.

 

PS: I have learned to embrace the creep. 

 

PPS: If you need a replacement tii timing cover, let me know. I think I have one, and it's not doing me any good. I feel your pain.

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Edited by wegweiser
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Thanks for your responses everyone.  In response to a couple of your thoughts:

 

- Ray and PaulTW, I didn't perform a compression test before this job as I didn't plan to end up where I am at the moment.  Last test (6 months ago) showed low (140s) but even results and I wasn't too worried.  Ray I'll definitely check the cold start valve for leaks - last time I did this was four years ago and it was good.

- JerryC, I had put the KF pulley nut back on to the end of the threads after loosening it to prevent damage to the threads whilst mucking around that area with various tools.

- After reviewing a number of pics of the lower cover it would seem if I strip the plastic from the central metal part of the pulley, I will be able to pull the timing cover and then pull the pulley remnants.  There is quite a large 'hole' in the timing cover in that region.

- Echappe and Gordon, things are getting pretty darn close to me pulling the engine for the exact reasons you mention.  The subframe though is in great condition, just filthy from all the oil and dirt and I cleaned that before commencing the job.  I have already replaced all bushings, control arms, ball joints, shocks, springs.  I also have nowhere to put the engine at the moment.  

- Paul (Wegweiser), I'm honoured to have images of the semi-naked F-Bomb presented on my thread.  I will see how my timing cover looks after I remove it and consider your offer.

 

So the plan at the moment is this:

Order new oil pump chain and sprocket.  Consider ordering crank shaft sprocket. (Cam sprocket and timing chain are new)

Burn or grind the remaining plastic off the pulley to allow cover to be removed, then pull the metal pulley core from the KF spindle.

I might hold off on sending the injectors out at the moment as they will have to go to the US (Gus or Wes) unless anyone can recommend a good Australian servicer.

Clean up the air accumulator and intake manifold.

Put it all back together and enjoy it for a month or two while I save some cash and then hire a workspace which is dry and large (my garage is small and open and shared with my wife) and pull the engine for a full rebuild, including KF rebuild and injector service, meanwhile sorting out the engine bay and channeling Bill Williams, PaulTWinterton, Wegweiser and all the other outstanding contributors to this forum.

 

I'm excited

 

Daniel

 

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Don't get too crazy "burning" the pump gear off the front of the injection pump... you'll end up cooking the front seal on it, behind the gear!

 

Also - if they sell "Redi-sleeve" products near you, I *highly* recommend installing one on the front crankshaft hub. These are thin sleeves that go over the surface, to repair any grooves worn in the hub, from decades of seal contact. 

 

Google "Reddi sleeve National # 99139" for an image and other info.

Edited by wegweiser
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Update:

 

Thanks Paul, yes I was concerned about flaming the KF pulley for that exact reason so I cut back the plastic with a dremel and lower timing cover is off!

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Triumphant display!!

 

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Please note the copious amount of red Loctite ('Demon's Blood') around the KF front - I think this was what was actually limiting my ability to get the cover off.  Once I was sure I had removed enough of the pulley, I used a nylon 'trim remover' as a wedge and whacked it into the space between the KF and the cover with a rubber mallet. Off came the cover, much to my satisfaction. 

 

A little quiz for those brain teaser types.  If my water pump was stuck on the cover (it was), then the upper bolt for the front engine hoist (which goes through the cover into the block) couldn't be removed - it would hit the water pump before rotating enough to free the timing chain cover - see following pics:  how did I get the cover off without cutting this bolt??? Answer at the end of the post.  It took me a bit of head scratching before the Eureka moment.

 

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Timing chain tension seems spot on.  Crank sprocket seems to be quite badly worn.  Toast?

 

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Oil pump sprocket is the old 3 bolt kind and looks to me pretty good as well to be honest.  Very little wear, no? Note the single oil pump shim and the groove on the (bypass valve?) where the chain had been slapping.

 

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And thank you Paul for the suggestion regarding the Redi-sleeve.  Here in Australia they seem to be called 'Speedi sleeve' - I think thats the same concept? http://www.industrialbearings.com.au/uploads/catalogs/skfspeedisleeve_1338271826.pdf

 

I will check out your previous posts regarding the correct size (or is that the one in your link?) - I do remember reading them.  Here is my crank pulley with the telltale groove from the seal:

 

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Ok so in conclusion:

 

First the answer to the riddle of the engine hoist bolt:  You guessed it, I just removed all the other bolts first.  As the cover came off I continued to undo that bolt in stages.

 

Secondly some further questions:

 

- Keep the oil pump sprocket and replace the chain and/or crank shaft sprocket?  Or new pump sprocket as well?  If so, are the three bolt type available?

- What does the painted 'NTB' with arrow to the grooved plug on the front of the block allude to? ('B' is hidden by chain guide)

- Is the notch on the inner land of the crank pulley (5 o'clock in pic above) a timing mark coinciding with the ball on the flywheel? (yes i've seen the ball)

 

All the best to everyone,

 

Daniel

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by GoldLion
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