Jump to content
  • When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

An you thought '02 prices were getting crazy


Mike Self

Recommended Posts

20 hours ago, Preyupy said:

Mine is not for sale but I'm sure my executor will be very happy. 

 

If you'd make me the beneficiary, that'd be great; the executor can PM me here with details.

 

Like Preyupy, I find the rise in value of 2002's both interesting and fun to watch (though the karnut guy flooding Craiglist with his cars is rather tiresome). I find myself wondering what the next car will be (apparently not an E46, per Toby). -KB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, danco_ said:

But why though.

 

Back up your statement with facts! I'd hate to be a company who restores cars, only to get bashed online by a keyboard warrior with no real facts.

I'd love to know why you said what you did. 

 

 

Purely academic of course. 

 

But seriously, why. 

 

Read his posts. You'll see why.

 

Cheers,

Ray

Stop reading this! Don't you have anything better to do?? :P
Two running things. Two broken things.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, danco_ said:

But why though.

 

Back up your statement with facts! I'd hate to be a company who restores cars, only to get bashed online by a keyboard warrior with no real facts.

I'd love to know why you said what you did. 

 

 

Purely academic of course. 

 

But seriously, why. 

 

Meh. I bought my car from Oldenzaal classics. Dude was slimy, and I've had several other people in Europe confirm similar experiences and sketchy 2002's from him.

 

Blah blah blah, rust free. Blah blah blah, All original, numbers matching. Blah blah blah, Un-welded. Blah blah blah, passes and has TUV inspection.

 

It turns out my car started life as a Chamois Automatic, When I bought it, it was a Polaris Silver so I knew it was a repaint, has a 4 speed manual, and an interior pieced together from various cars including seats from a later 76 (there goes all original, but the block does match the body) with Holland TUV credentials (maybe from his cousin?)

 

It ended up taking almost 9 months of work to get through import-inspection/TUV in Germany due to various issues including blown suspension, home-made exhaust, rust, non-functioning headlights (figured that out on the drive back from Holland, on the German Autobahn. Not fun), oil leaks, hack-fixes, and various electrical gremlins. Paint is job is OK, but it's clear that at the minimum, the front fenders, nose, and some other areas have been replaced (there goes unwelded, and rust free+all original). The Speedometer/Odometer didn't work (he had his friend run into a workshop and return with 2 additional gauge-packs for me to choose from), the fuel gauge didn't work (found that out quickly as well) and the driver-side door lock ended up getting stuck with the key in it as I was about to drive away. 

 

My guess is he's sitting on a stockpile of cars and parts and lego-ing them together.

 

I tried to confront the fellow about said issues after the fact and never got a response. It's took a fair bit of work to get to get my car to the point where it was driveable and became comfortable and happy with my purchase. Like I said, I've since met several people, and one older gentleman who rebuilds 2002's to a very high level describe him and his business practices as shady/slimy. 

 

 

Sooo.... That's just been my experience. Perhaps he's turned a new leaf?

Edited by 2002Scoob
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, 2002Scoob said:

 

Meh. I bought my car from Oldenzaal classics. Dude was slimy, and I've had several other people in Europe confirm similar experiences and sketchy 2002's from him.

 

Blah blah blah, rust free. Blah blah blah, All original, numbers matching. Blah blah blah, Un-welded. Blah blah blah, passes and has TUV inspection.

 

It turns out my car started life as a Chamois Automatic, When I bought it, it was a Polaris Silver so I knew it was a repaint, has a 4 speed manual, and an interior pieced together from various cars including seats from a later 76 (there goes all original, but the block does match the body) with Holland TUV credentials (maybe from his cousin?)

 

It ended up taking almost 9 months of work to get through import-inspection/TUV in Germany due to various issues including blown suspension, home-made exhaust, rust, non-functioning headlights (figured that out on the drive back from Holland, on the German Autobahn. Not fun), oil leaks, hack-fixes, and various electrical gremlins. Paint is job is OK, but it's clear that at the minimum, the front fenders, nose, and some other areas have been replaced (there goes unwelded, and rust free+all original). The Speedometer/Odometer didn't work (he had his friend run into a workshop and return with 2 additional gauge-packs for me to choose from), the fuel gauge didn't work (found that out quickly as well) and the driver-side door lock ended up getting stuck with the key in it as I was about to drive away. 

 

My guess is he's sitting on a stockpile of cars and parts and lego-ing them together.

 

I tried to confront the fellow about said issues after the fact and never got a response. It's took a fair bit of work to get to get my car to the point where it was driveable and became comfortable and happy with my purchase. Like I said, I've since met several people, and one older gentleman who rebuilds 2002's to a very high level describe him and his business practices as shady/slimy. 

 

 

Sooo.... That's just been my experience. Perhaps he's turned a new leaf?

 

 

Now this is what I wanted to hear. I also heard bad things about them, but most was base-less hate with no factual evidence to support.

 

What you provided was an honest account based on personal dealings with them, which I'm grateful to have read. 

 

 

Thanks again. I really enjoyed reading that simply because it was organic, but at the same time I'm sorry that you experienced what you did. They sound grimy and should not be conducting business with the general public.

 

 

 

Carry on. 

 

some cars

some motorcycles

some airplanes

some surfboards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello 02ANDERS...

 

Your post didn't personally offend me in the slightest, because I am neither rich nor an automotive investor in the distilled, purified form that you defined.  I have two, pretty nice 2002s that I suppose have some value and which will continue to appreciate should the current trend continue...But I don't have any active intentions of selling them as I'd likely regret it, regardless of what someone paid for them...but who knows, I still might for the right money, and weep with regret until I die.

 

Your post did offend my affinity for good journalism however, simply because I feel that it was teeming with sweeping generalizations and gross mischaracterizations.  In my view, you created two artificial, polar extremes of "real enthusiasts" and "investors" which is problematic because the delineations are rarely so clean and distinct.  There are too many enthusiasts who also view their cars as part of their investment portfolio (I'm in that group, because I'm not well-off enough not to look at them that way) and too many investors who also happen to genuinely enjoy their cars as enthusiasts, even if they wouldn't hesitate to "flip" them at any moment for the right dollars.  Your post doesn't recognize the overlap between the two groups, which isn't realistic. 

 

I believe that this group that you continually allude to, those whose "actions concerning classic cars are purely that of an investor," actually represents a miniscule percentage of the explanation for the rise in prices.  I just don't believe that there are very many of those people compared to genuine, well-off enthusiasts who are driving up the prices because they can finally afford the objects of their grad school fantasies after decades of hard work and they WANT (demand) the cars and because there aren't many of these autos to go around (supply). In other words, the people who, in your words aren't "doing our hobby any good" are...er, members of our hobby for the most part.  It's just the market at work...you don't have to like it, but it's reality.

 

The other thing you said that doesn't ring true is that "not once do I divide people in to groups based on their financial means."  Well Anders, just who do you think is driving up the prices of classic cars, poor people?  No, it is people with significant financial means, regardless of where they rank on your "enthusiast-O-meter," and I would again argue that most of them ARE true enthusiasts, regardless of their investment motives and timing of hold vs sell. I personally don't see why a real enthusiast couldn't buy a car, enjoy it for 6 months for all the right reasons and then shamelessly flip it for a huge profit without his enthusiast credentials being at risk. You and others may disagree with that, which is just fine...I still love you.

 

My purpose of paraphrasing your two groupings ("rabid car enthusiasts vs ruthless speculators") was to highlight just how unrealistic I thought they were relative to the actual actors and circumstances.

 

Last and definitely not least: I 100% agree with you (how could anyone not agree?) that the rise in prices of classic cars brings with it negative and sad repercussions, particularly to enthusiasts of modest means who become priced out of the market for the cars that they love so much, but can no longer afford to own and maintain. I am not in any way insensitive to that reality but I don't see the same villain that you do, any more than I see it in the demographic shifts in real estate, which are far more sad because we're talking about people being displaced from their homes (I don't work in real estate btw).

 

Again Anders, I have always enjoyed your posts and surely will continue to do so.  I just feel that you missed the mark "wide-right" on this one.  We don't have to see everything the same, which is the beauty of this forum and of being a humanoid in a democratic (and capitalistic) society.  I respectfully don't have the time to address each of your "6 points of light" dissertation (just being candid in a hopefully lighthearted way) but I feel I've sufficiently explained my position.

 

COOP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think both of you (Anders and COOP) make some excellent and well phrased, valid points. My current dread of price increases is based on twerps new to the game that pick up completely salvageable cars, and then chop them up to make fast money off parts and cars that they know NOTHING about. That comprises most of my disdain of late, with regard to 2002 prices. Here's a tip Kids: "just because you saw it on ebay does not make your price any less absurd, with regard to "rarity" or demand of what are often common parts, commonly traded among the community."

 

I'm all for capitalism.... but I'm also for responsibly monitoring those that cluelessly rip people off "just because they can." If you're gonna try to sell that broken-ass shift knob for $150.... have the cajones to take some comments about it. :)

Edited by wegweiser

Paul Wegweiser

Wegweiser Classic BMW Services

Nationwide vehicle transport available

NEW WEBSITE! www.zenwrench.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

02Anders,

I completely understand your view but also think about it,  they are now at least 40 years old.  If they are only worth $10,000 no one would ever restore one, they would be throw away cars.  If you needed an engine and you personally could not remove, rebuild, and re-install it with today's labor rates and parts prices you would have 2/3rds of the value of a perfect example tied up in the new bone stock engine.  A new set of tires would be a significant % of the value of the car.  You used to be able to get a decent paint job for $500 now the materials are more than twice that.  Labor was $25-30/hr now it's more like $125/hr.  There are a lot of cars out there that will never be restored because it just does not make any sense monetarily. 

 

I bought my '70 for $2000 in December of 1974 with 42,000 miles on it.  It was my daily driver until the mid 80's when it had a little over 300,000 miles on it.  It is on it's 4th engine (the original engine is under the workbench, mostly because nobody wants a 1600)  I figure 20-25,000 miles of that is track miles.  I 1st road in a turbo at the Nurburgring in June 1974 and lusted for one ever since.  First you could not get one because they did not bring them into the US.  Then they were just a really expensive 2002 (at $4-5k for a used one).  By the time I thought I could really afford one they had gone crazy and I just could not fathom $25k for a 2002.  I lucked out, and stumbled on the car I now have, someone in England that I have known for years had it tucked away and it had not run since '86.  To say I got a good deal would be an understatement, and I was able to restore it myself (kind of my business)  and I can say my total investment is about what someone would pay for a really nice Tii.  

 

If someone is going to complain about "investors" messing up the "enthusiast" market, almost without hesitation I would say Look in the Mirror first.  There are a lot of us that are early owners that bought them, drove them, fell in love and just could not bring ourselves to get rid of them when they were no longer our "daily driver".  If I had left mine alone, or at least more stock, then I probably would have driven it a lot more but the new engine needs 108 octane fuel.   

1970 1602 (purchased 12/1974)

1974 2002 Turbo

1988 M5

1986 Euro 325iC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jeeeez... Daniel, you sure do seem quite intent on arguing a point I wasn't even trying to make...??
The second post I made in this thread, was based upon my opinion of the effects that the rapidly rising prices in the classic car market are having on our hobby.  I was not trying to define what makes a true enthusiast or what makes an investor - nor that vast grey area in between.  I feel that I expressed my views quite clearly and also backed them up with facts.  That's of course not to say that you need to agree with me!  But I would appreciate if you would refrain from placing words in my mouth.
There's really no point in me arguing the point any further.  I stand by what I wrote earlier in the thread, and would therefore only end up repeating what I've already written - thus fairly promptly putting to sleep any poor soul who's still mustering the energy to follow this debat...
Daniel, can we just agree to disagree??

 

Preyupy, thx for your sober and sensible reply.  You make a very valid point too - it is in fact the one counter argument to my views on this matter, which I honestly don't have much of a comeback to.  A vague attempt at a comeback... and I would claim that the rising values of our classic cars, in turn also help workshops justify higher cost of labor and manufacturers justify higher cost of spares.  Thus it is to some extent the higher value of a classic car, that also makes it more expensive to restore or even just to maintain.  But granted, my argument here is of course not bulletproof!  Normal inflation dictates that prices will of course rise on both labor and spare parts since way back when we all bought our very first 02.  So yes, there is no denying that the higher prices mean that more 02's - or classics in general for that matter - are being saved.  Not just saved, but even resurrected.  And that is of course purely a good thing!  :)
As with almost everything else in life, there are pro's and con's to this subject too.  I thoroughly embrace this positive result of rising classic car prices, but I equally feel that the negatives in this case still outweigh the positives.  All of which is of course rather trivial, as there's obviously nothing I can do to change the situation anyway...

O==00==O
With BMW-Regards,
Anders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh my God Anders, seriously?! This is so freaking "last week," it's now officially boring me into a coma. Yeah, sure, cool, whatever, that's fine. We can agree to disagree. Bottom line, I thought your original post was lame...and I still think it is lame when I re-read it...I explained clearly why I felt that way which is nothing more than my meaningless/ful opinion...I don't, however, think you're lame (au contraire, I think you're a huge asset here) and as I said, I've always enjoyed you, your beautiful cars and your writing...and I look forward to enjoying a lot more great contributions from you. So for chrissakes, enough already. 

 

COOP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...but Byron, the average, used, generic, maybe a bit tired 2002 IS still worth something less than $10k, you know... and yet, we still put that much into an engine sometimes.  Certainly, paint!

 

Likewise, the Volvo 122, around here- it's a $5k car if it's in really nice shape.  And yet, people fix them, paint them, (they are a real pain to paint)  and drive 'em.  Because, it's not the money, it's the car.

 

Datsun Roadsters, holy hell- there only were ever about 20,000, they rusted, they got hit, they got used up because they ran forever, parts are hard to find, they SHOULD BE collectors' cars-

and yet, a stupidly nice one is hard to get $10k for, with $30,000 worth of engine, trans, paint, wheels...  and parts cars still show up for a thousand or less.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, 

 

it never really makes any financial sense.  Had I been smart, I would have bought XK120's in the early '90's.

 

t

"I learn best through painful, expensive experience, so I feel like I've gotten my money's worth." MattL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Precisely Toby!!

For me, it's not about the money - it's about the cars.

I don't care if it doesn't make any financial sense...

We only get one shot at this thing called life, and "owning/driving/spannering/polishing/and more" classic cars makes me happy.  :)

O==00==O
With BMW-Regards,
Anders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Preyupy said:

02Anders,

I completely understand your view but also think about it,  they are now at least 40 years old.  If they are only worth $10,000 no one would ever restore one, they would be throw away cars.  If you needed an engine and you personally could not remove, rebuild, and re-install it with today's labor rates and parts prices you would have 2/3rds of the value of a perfect example tied up in the new bone stock engine.  A new set of tires would be a significant % of the value of the car.  You used to be able to get a decent paint job for $500 now the materials are more than twice that.  Labor was $25-30/hr now it's more like $125/hr.  There are a lot of cars out there that will never be restored because it just does not make any sense monetarily.  

 

A lot of us buy cars to restore and modify and drive and don't really care about the immediate resale value.

I have a TON more into my 914 then it will ever be worth.  But it makes me happy.

Likewise, I bought a BEAT 2002 specifically to play with it and make it into something that I wanted, and I don't exactly care about future resale.

 

Playing with cars isn't always just a money game where you are looking at the end sale price.  If that makes you happy, then there isn't a problem with it.  At all.  But for a lot of us, its just as much about getting dirt under your fingernails and having the car you wanted to drive around.

 

Zach

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kook Aid, is Kool.

 

Interesting thread.  I am nearly afraid to post on this thread.  Counting the Alpina car I currently have, I have owned three 2oo2's ('69 2002, '73tii (AlpinA A4 clone), '74tii (stock)).  I can say with assurance that as I moved those cars on, I completely lost my ass financially (based on what the cars were bought for and how much I put into them). But then, I really enjoyed the sh&t out of all of them and didn't anticipate profit from their sale.  I did make a fair profit on the AlpinA A4 system I sold back in the 1994 year - this was a NOS AlpinA A4s (129.10) pump, manifold, throttles, linkage and air box.  $5,200.  Pretty significant money back then....but that was not the goal - to make money.  A difficult set of parts to round up then - and now.  I was able to wrangle the pump out of AlpinA directly - $2,200 was the number on that - again a pretty petty back then.  To this day I regret selling that stuff.  I made pretty good money back then, but not enough to hoard parts - had to sell stuff to move up. Late 90's without 2oo2, I decided I wanted to build a vintage race car, found a NOS Schnitzer head kit I figured I would build a car around.  That was 1996. Six years later the Alpina race car fell into my hands - of course when I purchased the car I didn't know what it was, thought it was possibly a Schnitzer werks car.  As the story goes with most of the body work done in 2007 I learned the true identity of the car - despite all the time and money that I put into the body work I literally cut it off the car so that I could restore it back to its former glory.  Needless to say, a labor of love, with a tremendous amount of time and money spent.  My family and their needs always come first (always have and always will), my wife supports my hobby - learned a lot and have had a lot of fun.  Of course now a lot more fun to have in the upcoming months.  Cheers.

 

004.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I buy cars that I want to OWN and spend as much money as I think they are worth to ME.  The average number of years I own a car is about 10, the average number of years on my 02's 30.  Believe me when the '70 gets sold it is going to be for a huge loss compared to what I have spent on it over the last 43 years.  People own cars for all sorts of reasons, from basic transportation to retirement investments.  Very seldom do the basic transportation cars wind up being good investments.  Decide what you want to own and go for it.  Just do your research and think about it carefully, 

 

If you want a perfect Tii and you are not an above average mechanic with a lot of spare time on your hands you can't buy a rusty old Tii and make it perfect for the price of a perfect one that is already done.  Yes $45,000 is a ton of money for a Tii but if you spend $15,000 for a nice driver, strip it down and rebuild everything, new paint, upholstery, repaint/re-plate everything and do all of the mechanical work yourself you will easily spend another $20-25,000 in cash to do it.  That means you get to pay yourself $5,000 for about 250-300 hours of labor ( about $16.50/hr).  If this is what you do for fun then you are in great shape, if you are trying to make money at this you are probably better off taking a 2nd job at McD's.    

1970 1602 (purchased 12/1974)

1974 2002 Turbo

1988 M5

1986 Euro 325iC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • BMW Neue Klasse - a birth of a Sports Sedan

    BMW Neue Klasse - a birth of a Sports Sedan

    Unveiling of the Neue Klasse Unveiled in 1961, BMW 1500 sedan was a revolutionary concept at the outset of the '60s. No tail fins or chrome fountains. Instead, what you got was understated and elegant, in a modern sense, exciting to drive as nearly any sports car, and yet still comfortable for four.   The elegant little sedan was an instant sensation. In the 1500, BMW not only found the long-term solution to its dire business straits but, more importantly, created an entirely new
    History of the BMW 2002 and the 02 Series

    History of the BMW 2002 and the 02 Series

    In 1966, BMW was practically unknown in the US unless you were a touring motorcycle enthusiast or had seen an Isetta given away on a quiz show.  BMW’s sales in the US that year were just 1253 cars.  Then BMW 1600-2 came to America’s shores, tripling US sales to 4564 the following year, boosted by favorable articles in the Buff Books. Car and Driver called it “the best $2500 sedan anywhere.”  Road & Track’s road test was equally enthusiastic.  Then, BMW took a cue from American manufacturers,
    The BMW 2002 Production Run

    The BMW 2002 Production Run

    BMW 02 series are like the original Volkswagen Beetles in one way (besides both being German classic cars)—throughout their long production, they all essentially look alike—at least to the uninitiated:  small, boxy, rear-wheel drive, two-door sedan.  Aficionados know better.   Not only were there three other body styles—none, unfortunately, exported to the US—but there were some significant visual and mechanical changes over their eleven-year production run.   I’ve extracted t

  • Upcoming Events

  • Supporting Vendors

×
×
  • Create New...