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Classic Car/Modern Fuel Injection What would/did you do?


jrhone

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Thinking about a long term project if it makes sense. I like the classic car but if I can get more modern performance, reliability and depenedability why not?  I have a 292 cam, headers, high compression pistons, 123/Tune distributor, etc. so a nicely modded engine. Carbs seem like a compromise.  They may never run like a modern FI car that's adjusting mixture and things like that on the fly.  You adjust them for performance at a certain RPM range and everywhere else, well it is, what it is...I see new systems coming out like the Weber 38 style throttle body, and the DCOE style individual throttle bodies that will look classic but offer fuel injection. Then there is the e30 system with a 325i throttle body. There is also individual throttle body systems. Then there is the Management system...a lot of info to process.  So if I was looking for a performance boost, reliability and dependability, what system would be best for me?  It's my daily driver and I also like to have spirited canyon runs occasionally.  Trying to decide whether to keep tuning Weber 38's, and live with the unreliable choke and "quirks", to slap those DCOE 40s I have sitting on the shelf onto the car and have them tuned, or go to a fuel injection setup that I can probably tune to work very well on a daily basis.  

1976 BMW 2002 Fjord Blue Ireland Stage II • Bilstein Sports • Ireland Headers • Weber 38 • 292 Cam • 9.5:1 Pistons • 123Tune Bluetooth 15" BBS

2016 BMW 535i M Sport

1964 Volvo Amazon Wagon
http://www.project2002.com

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EFI and a standalone systems are awesome BUT, you have to know how to tune and navigate the software.

 

 You will not have a silky smooth idle or reliable quick start on any giving day/temp unless you spend the time and tune during almost every situation. Modern day systems can often extrapolate across temp or rpm ranges but that does not mean it is optimal and you may have a slight hesitation, stumble, etc.. So, you may have to really fine tune parts of your timing/fueling maps to get it just right.

 

 I am a huge standalone supporter but, you have to learn and know how to set it up, run it and tweak it. Once you do, you will be very happy. Should you go that route, find someone who sells a system that is local, knowledgeable and can tune. Ask for references. Find people who use the system and had him/her tune to see if he/she or the system is any good. 

 

 I have the best luck with Motec and Link systems(Vipec is good too). A lot of support for those systems and they are bullet proof.

72'  2002 turbo build - under construction...

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For me, the best of both worlds seems to be leveraging all the port, runner and plenum work BMW has already done for the e30 318i intake plus a tunable EFI controller like MegaSquirt_3.  Intake design is far more complex than us mere mortals can determine without the right CFD software tools and flow benches so I'll defer to BMW with the opposed port design for good resonance optimization and long runners for good low-end torque.  It's hard to beat the incredibly low cost of junkyard parts for this, giving you a drop-in intake.

 

The e30 EFI ECU is antiquated so use of MS3 gives you all the benefits of a modern controller.  Individual spark and injection, EVAP control, electronic speedo option, etc.

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Wow Motec makes Megasquirt look like a bargain.  I'm sure it's a great product but it certainly wouldn't have fit in my budget.  We're using a MS 3 Pro which should do the trick.

1975 non-purist driver M42 Turbo, Hurricane a/c, and all sorts of cool stuff

1976 2002 sold, 1970 2002 sold, 1969 1600 sold

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Look at Haltech site, they have 4 different models.  http://www.haltech.com/which-ecu-is-right-for-you/  Look at "Which Model is right for you"

My car will start in any weather and drive off like a new one just off the showroom floor.

A radiator shop is a good place to take a leak.

 

I have no idea what I'm doing but I know I'm really good at it.

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The guys on Mighty Car Mods use Haltech all the time on their builds.  Seems like a very solid product.

1975 non-purist driver M42 Turbo, Hurricane a/c, and all sorts of cool stuff

1976 2002 sold, 1970 2002 sold, 1969 1600 sold

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  I will say this again, It doesn't matter what system you pick, make sure you get support( for hardware suggestions, start up maps and tuning)! You get what you pay for. Expensive systems are worth it. They often have very good hardware, features and support. Haltec is good, I would consider it for sure.

 

 In general, do some real searching and you will find what serious tuners started tuning with and after much heart ache, what EMS systems they finally gravitate too.

 

Regarding the E30 parts, all that fancy BMW tuning goes out the window once you change any part of the original system. ie cams, headers, etc..

 

Don't get me wrong, it is easy, good for most and far better than a home brew BUT, again after changing parts, optimal tuning will require custom parts.

 

Once you figure out what all that costs, keep in mind there will be tuning costs. Dyno time costs and or tuning costs from the EMS vendor.

Edited by evil02

72'  2002 turbo build - under construction...

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I am running AEM and it is great BUT you need to know how to tune it!  As with all stand alone EFI systems they are only as good as the person tuning them.  For your lightly tuned engine I doubt you will find a huge difference in performance, drivability, or fuel mileage compared to a 32/36 or 38/38 2 bbl Weber.  And if you factor in the cost to install and tune any EFI system you will not be $$$ ahead.  If you are a gear head and want to do it just for the fun then it is worth what ever you are willing to put into it.  If you are going to pay someone else to install and tune it just remember it is going to be a custom one-off system and when you need someone to work on it there is a good chance they will have to start from scratch to figure it out before they can even start to diagnose the problem.   

1970 1602 (purchased 12/1974)

1974 2002 Turbo

1988 M5

1986 Euro 325iC

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Quote

The e30 EFI ECU is antiquated

but reliable, debugged and hardened for automotive use.

 

So it comes down to your comfort level.

 I think a custom ECU is cool.

Jenn wants no part of it- she wants something that's built by a car company to run a car.  

 

It's all relative to what YOU want, here, and what your comfort level is, when you 

go out for a drive.  I love science projects.  But I also travel with code readers....

 

t

 

 

"I learn best through painful, expensive experience, so I feel like I've gotten my money's worth." MattL

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What about one of these Volvo injection set-up? I realise that I should probably be a bit more descriptive but it seems that this is a more modern basis than the equivalent e30 arrangement (though designed for a different engine!)

rtheriaque wrote:

Carbs: They're necessary and barely controlled fuel leaks that sometimes match the air passing through them.

My build blog:http://www.bmw2002faq.com/blog/163-simeons-blog/

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32 minutes ago, AustrianVespaGuy said:

Just PMed you, if you're interested in Megasquirt let me know and I can help you through it from A to Z, including part sources, wiring diagrams, basic maps, tips and tricks, etc. I know MS for 2002s backwards and forwards.

-Carl

Very nice of you to offer help Carl. 

I know there have been a few Megasquirt set up threads. But I am a fan of more information than less. (There are many ways to skin a cat, but some are easier than others). 

How about a Blog or a Thread on your method?

 

Thank you for offering help. Very nice of you. 

 

Cheers! 

 

PS: Is your next car going to be named Obelix?....;)

Edited by Vicleonardo1

Loose: Not tightly bound. Subject to motion.
Lose: What happens when you are spell check dependent.

 

1975 Malaga. It is rusty but runs. Just like me. 

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19 hours ago, Healey3000 said:

For me, the best of both worlds seems to be leveraging all the port, runner and plenum work BMW has already done for the e30 318i intake plus a tunable EFI controller like MegaSquirt_3.  Intake design is far more complex than us mere mortals can determine without the right CFD software tools and flow benches so I'll defer to BMW with the opposed port design for good resonance optimization and long runners for good low-end torque.  It's hard to beat the incredibly low cost of junkyard parts for this, giving you a drop-in intake.

I very much agree with this point by Healey, and can confirm that with my 318i intake I get a full 10% supercharging from ~2500-3000 tomorrow with those runners. MAP goes up as high as 111kpa!

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1 hour ago, Vicleonardo1 said:

Very nice of you to offer help Carl. 

I know there have been a few Megasquirt set up threads. But I am a fan of more information than less. (There are many ways to skin a cat, but some are easier than others). 

How about a Blog or a Thread on your method?

 

Thank you for offering help. Very nice of you. 

 

Cheers! 

 

PS: Is your next car going to be named Obelix?....;)

Been meaning to do this for a while now, and this might just be the impetus I need to get moving on it. Would be really great if someone is working on such a project at the same time, would help keep me from getting things in the right order and so on. I sorta know all the answers but sometimes it's hard to remember the right questions. But yes, this thread has convinced me to get started here this evening! And had you got the reference, if I ever do get another 2002, he will indeed be Obelix! (And my Vespa is Idefix, btw!)

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