Too much Rust ?

[JimM]

Need some advice from those that know more than me about these cars.  New to the game and the site but appreciate some of the feedback I have already gotten here.  I have the car up on blocks in the garage and am trying to assess rust to see where I stand with this.  Paid a little over 2K for the car and it runs and drives pretty well.  Started out to rebuild the pedal box and the rust findings started there and continue into various parts of the car.  The latest discovery and for me the most concerning so far are in the rear floor pan where the body mounts to the rear sub frame and also a complete blow through in the wheel well on the passenger side.  Pictures below with the last one showing some sort of goofy patch the previous owner made by riveting a piece of fairly thick sheet metal around the wheel well / shock tower inside he trunk also on the passenger side.  Just learning how to weld but not afraid (yet).  Trying to understand if the wheel well and rear floor area is something that could be patched or if this is a replacement scenario and likely beyond my weekend skill set ?  Any advice would be appreciated.   Don't want to walk away but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.  Thanks from snowy VT and land of salt brine roads in the winter which have taken its toll on this car.

[TobyB]

Yup.

 

Unless you're intrepid, a metal fabricator, or seriously loaded, a different shell will be time better spent.

 

If you really want to learn, however, this one will teach you.  The lessons will not be painless.

 

t

[Son of Marty]

First step would be to put a critical eye to the rest of the car poke around the rockers and frame rail with a ice pick/awl and see how soft they are, what you are showing in your post is fixable but your in to multi level repair for most (ie inter and outer rockers and wheel well) might be a pretty big project for your first.

[Simeon]

Toby has it. This one is your 'parts car' for the beautiful restoration you will do on another car with a better shell. $2K is parts car prices these days so don't feel bad. 

[JackF]

If you decide to go forward, as a symbolic step, have a ceremonial burning of your check book. I cannot imagine that with the rot you have found that it is not more wide-spread. Find out the extent and then decide how to move forward. You have $2000 into it. That is not a lot of money compared to where you will end up. If you have the desire and resources then go for it, but give this a cold hard eye before proceeding. I say this having been down this road. When I bought my '72 it had a little rust at the L rear window and a quarter size hole over the LR wheel arch. By the time I got done I had a new trunk floor, back panel, both qtrs, rockers, floors F/R. Oh, I think I did doors too and the nose. I am smart! Be careful or you can be smart like me;)

 

[Gordon]

Been there,done that, i.e owning a very rusty imported 2002 that I brought back with me from Germany when I separated from the AF in the 80's. Fast forward ten years, my mechanic advises me to find an 02 shell to transfer all my parts into since my 02 was so rusty. Back in the 90's, rust free 02 shells could be found for very cheap in So Cal. Lucky for me, a red light runner totals my 02 and the insurance company gives me far money than it's worth. I bought the 02 back from the insurance company for salvage value and stripped it and then I found a running 74 02 for $750.  Those days are long gone. 

 

Lesson learned, always look for an 02 with the best body you can find. If that means finding an 02 shell out in CA, AZ or FL, do it, your wallet will thank you in the long run. Mechanical work is child's play compared to rust repair and body restoration. You have a great parts car or a great project car to practice your welding. Read JackF above comment, he's spot on regarding burning the checkbook if you pay someone to do the rust repair.  Look for something like this. https://asheville.craigslist.org/cto/5997583364.html     Keep us posted on what you decide

 

G-Man

[tisalover]

Jack is completely right, this car would devour your bank account, or require the patience ,welding and fabrication skills of a master. If the rear shock towers look that bad, I can only imagine the inside of the rocker panels, and front frame rails etc.

As others have optimistically, happily mentioned consider this your parts car. Do not, however, be too upset with yourself. These are great and joyous cars, worthy of your attention and moving forward. Best regards, Peter

[Mike Self]

IF you want to learn how to weld and fabricate metal, and 

IF you have a local vocational school with night classes on welding and/or auto body work, and they let you work on your own car, or

if not, you're willing to buy a small MIG welder and compressor, and have/find a place to work

IF you have the time to devote to it

You CAN fix it yourself.  

 

But if you answer no to the above IF's, find a better body.

 

My '69 wasn't quite that badly rusted, and I took an auto body class, bought my own MIG and did the repairs--six years off and on.  Looks very nice now, but it wasn't easy.  I would have simply gotten another car, but I had bought the '69 new--and it was my first new car so I took the time and effort to save it.

 

cheers

mike

[MitchaPaLoOza88]

I would be more concerned on if the rust has affected the structure of the car. Biggest thing to look for is if all the doors on the car close and open properly. Some sag is expected on the doors but if the door really has to be wrestled closed that a big sign of structural issues. That is the biggest determination of rust too far.

 

I get annoyed when people call it a parts car at the first sign of rust. It has more to do with the person doing the work than the car itself. It depends on what you want to turn the car into, and how far you want to go with this restoration. It does not have to break the bank, it only breaks the bank for people that buy their restoration. You can go to the scrap yard and cut panels off cars for around $20 for 40 lbs of sheet metal. You can spend $2k on another possibly rusty car or you can spend it on the right equipment and parts to tackle the job. Get a good gas welder, it takes double the amount of time to learn on a shitty one.

 

When tackling body work (mainly rust) create a plan. Start by combing the car completely over and make a list of all the areas that need repair from worst to least. Expect it to be larger than it looks. Start on a smaller repair to see how you like it, then move on to the bigger ones. It doesn't take a master to do the work, it just takes practice. Most of the rusty bits are hidden from view in the end anyways.

[Hans]

To quote myself, if you have some sentimental attachment to this car, it MIGHT be worth it, but we're looking at major reconstruction on some pretty serious structural areas of the chassis. Even if you do it yourself, it would take months to cut, fabricate, and weld new sheet metal. Do you really want to spend a year or two restoring the car when you could find a decent body and skip many months and thousands of dollars to get something on the road in my lifetime?

[TobyB]

Quote

I would be more concerned on if the rust has affected the structure of the car.

 

Oh, it has- the rear subframe mounting points are not really there.  You don't get much more structural than that.

 

The front inner fenders will be similarly ventilated, guaranteed. 

 

That's the structure. 

 

This car's a project, or a donor, not a driver.

 

Jus' sayin'

 

t

 

[MitchaPaLoOza88]

26 minutes ago, TobyB said:

 

Oh, it has- the rear subframe mounting points are not really there.  You don't get much more structural than that.

 

The front inner fenders will be similarly ventilated, guaranteed. 

 

That's the structure. 

 

This car's a project, or a donor, not a driver.

 

Jus' sayin'

 

t

 

It's definitely a hard job but as in structure or "straightness of the unibody" it could still be sound. The subframe is just attached to mounts after all. And the subframes job is to secure the rear suspension components but it doesn't hold the unibody together by any means. Thats why you can remove the subframe and the car won't fall apart. Unless its rusted all the way across from driver to passenger I would stand by it is a good unibody in need of some rusty love.

[Simeon]

Toby's point is well made. Everything we can see are well known as the hardest repairs on these cars. Of course you can have a go at patching it with steel cut from old refrigerators (a friend of mine used to swear by that). 

 

The only problem is that that these are complex 3 dimensional panels, that need to be placed accurately on top of other complex panels which may not be there either. Most people do not have the skills necessary to fabricate parts like that so you buy them from Walloth und Nesch. They then need placing and removing about a thousand times to position right. This is where you get back to 'buying your restoration'. Some people just want to drive a car rather than stare at a rusty shell for years. 

 

 

[JimM]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.  Clear as mud  so far but the consensus seems to be this is not a simple undertaking.  I am getting ready to retire in another year or two and this was part of the plan to occupy my time as golf bores me and I'm too slow to chase women.   Given that finding another body without the rust issues will likely have to come from the mid-west / west coast and shipping + the body could easily put me in for another 2-4K and I would still just have 2 project vehicles and 4-5K spent.  In hindsight this was not the one to buy in the first place but that ship has sailed.   I think I am going to start up front and work back towards the more complicated metal work, i.e. the shock towers / wheel wells and see how it goes with flat pieces like floor pans and my welding skills.  If nothing else I will learn as I go.  I figure if I take the same money that a body and shipping is going to cost me I can buy a fair amount of sheet metal , tools and a new and better welder.  Looking at a Hobart 140 as it seems to get the best reviews short of a 220V version, it's Miller's homeowner line and has a pretty broad range of capability for about $550 ?

 

I have close to 1000 square feet of heated shop that I built last year so I have the space and am negotiating with the wife on a 4 post lift.  The last negotiation cost me a new set of living room furniture and hardwood floors so we will see how this one goes.  If I get to the point where my skills are maxed I can take it to a pro to do those bits and pieces but in the mean time I can do the menial labor to save some cost.  My mental calculation tells me I should be able to do this for around 10K and end up with a better vehicle than my overall 12K investment could buy not including my labor hours.  That number of course would be dependent on doing the bulk of the work myself.  I'm lucky enough that I have a couple of other classic drivers that will keep me from getting depressed while this one sits as I go through the process.   

I think the first step is to install the new refrigerator into the shop and stock an ample supply of hops and barley along with copious amounts of Led Zeppelin , Pink Floyd, Grand Funk and the other songs of my youth to put me in the right mental state.  I'll go into it with an open mind and if it doesn't work at least I'll go down swinging. 

THANKS ALL

Jim

[TobyB]

Quote

 it could still be sound.

 

As in, you'd take it to the track?

I wouldn't. The unibody's purpose is, in part,

to keep the wheels pointed in the right direction.

I would not trust that shell to be able to do so.

 

 

Jim, good on you for deciding to rebuild it.  We're here for you.  As is Walloth and Nesch.  Post up some pictures

of the front inner fenders.

If you're still working, start ordering repair panels now.  On the dual theory that you have money for 'em now, and you can GET them now.

 

Do be careful with the rear subframe- those mounts are barely there, and if they move, you'll have to re- locate them.  That takes extra work.

 

Good luck.  We're pullin' for ya.

 

t