body and interior rear side panel removal and replacement

[jdamm]

Hi All,

i've done a brief search and haven't really found much info on this, so i ask, does anyone on here have any tips/tricks/pointers or experience removing and installing a new complete rear side panel including rear side window frame( i'm planning to cut the top half of the window frame off(pic) for ease of install/minimizing amount of work.)?

i removed the boot lid and sanded back the old paint below the hinge(pic), found gold coloured weld or brazing, but i'm nervous as i do not know the correct way to separate this join as it wraps into the read window sill without deforming the lap and the bodywork that is staying(this i need help or guidance on). 

incase your wondering why the panel is being replaced, the wheel well has taken a hit at some stage which explained the large amount of filler around the fender lip(pic), the tire rub only on that wheel, also swiss cheese in the sill or rocker?( i just finished replacing this on the other side(pic) and rusting boot floor behind wheel housing that had been repaired.

 

thanks in advance!

julian

[harold]

I cut lower on the B-pillar (about 2" up), and the same place as you show on the C pillar.  For the brazed seam, I cut just outside the brazed area.  Here is the best picture I found, but it is not very good.   Avoiding the braze allowed use of the same mig technique for this joint as for the others. 

 

The trick here is to get the new panel cut at exactly the same point.   I recommend test fitting the trunk lid once you have the quarter panel tacked in place.

[TobyB]

Boy, without being there,

my first assessment would be to use the panel you have to make a big patch panel-

 only use as much of it as you need to replace just the lower half of the rear quarter....

 

For a whole panel, tho, cut away the seams on the damaged quarterpanel side, then work on

getting the remains of the panel removed. It's a lot easier to remove a small strip of metal from

a panel you're trying to save.  This  works pretty well for un- brazing that top seam,

and the rear seam above and below the taillights is a stinker, too.

I'd add that you should dimension the width of the shell at the door latches- and maybe even

add a stiffner between the sides to make sure the new panel goes in at the same angle as the old one came out.

 

Good luck- it's a big job...

 

t

 

[cwlo]

Small detail you might already know, but the lower rocker/quarter panel patch on the other side.  It is spot welded from the factory to the inner panel about 1 1/2" above the bottom, which is where the inner and outer touch.  Good luck with the other side.  Take your time and be precise, as it will pay off in the end.

 

Chris

 

[jdamm]

2 hours ago, cwlo said:

Small detail you might already know, but the lower rocker/quarter panel patch on the other side.  It is spot welded from the factory to the inner panel about 1 1/2" above the bottom, which is where the inner and outer touch.  Good luck with the other side.  Take your time and be precise, as it will pay off in the end.

 

Chris

 

thanks chris,

that would be just below the sill trim line holes correct( red line in pic)? i had lots of swiss cheese below those hole so the spots weren't there when i removed it,hence none there at present. there was a line of spots along the underside of the sill about .5 inch out form the main sill spot line( blue line in pic), how crucial are these two spot lines? it was a f*#king mission trying to get the rocker patch fitted( hence the join runs off(pic).

 

 

[jdamm]

2 hours ago, TobyB said:

Boy, without being there,

my first assessment would be to use the panel you have to make a big patch panel-

 only use as much of it as you need to replace just the lower half of the rear quarter....

 

For a whole panel, tho, cut away the seams on the damaged quarterpanel side, then work on

getting the remains of the panel removed. It's a lot easier to remove a small strip of metal from

a panel you're trying to save.  This  works pretty well for un- brazing that top seam,

and the rear seam above and below the taillights is a stinker, too.

I'd add that you should dimension the width of the shell at the door latches- and maybe even

add a stiffner between the sides to make sure the new panel goes in at the same angle as the old one came out.

 

Good luck- it's a big job...

 

t

 

 

7 hours ago, harold said:

I cut lower on the B-pillar (about 2" up), and the same place as you show on the C pillar.  For the brazed seam, I cut just outside the brazed area.  Here is the best picture I found, but it is not very good.   Avoiding the braze allowed use of the same mig technique for this joint as for the others. 

 

The trick here is to get the new panel cut at exactly the same point.   I recommend test fitting the trunk lid once you have the quarter panel tacked in place.

thanks toby and harold for your pointers, 

toby- thanks for the bracing idea at the latches, i was wondering if i needed to do any, would you do any in the boot?(to hold the tail panel in place),

i was starting to think along the lines of using the panel like a big patch panel but i didn't want to butcher or balls up a $3500NZD panel ahahahaha.

 

once again thanks for your help, have a good one

julian

[cwlo]

Its been a bit since I did mine, but they are closer to the blue line.  Basically, they are located where the inner panel is touching the outer.  Do you remember the inner panel being all there?  You could drill a small hole to locate where the two panels are closest, and weld there.  On mine, the inner panel was a bit rotted as well, so I had to graft in a piece there as well.   I might be able to dig up a pic of the inner panel if that would help.  Now, I'm sot sure how crucial these welds are, but seems to me they would provide a better boxed in structure for strength.  Maybe someone else can chime in.

 

Chris

Edited September 5, 2016 by cwlo

[TobyB]

yeah, i know cutting up a perfectly new panel to create a lot of butt welding is counterintuitive, and

if the rest of the panel's a mess, maybe not the best way to go about it.  The 'box' created by the innner

and outer gets really floppy at the back of the door when you take the outer off- but the back half has no such problem, as there IS no inner!

As already suggested, use the trunk (boot) lid and your taillight for alignment- that's all you're going to see back there anyway.

 

Whole or half?  Really up to you.  Maybe do all the metal and preliminary body work to the other side, see how it goes,

and let that help you decide.  If it takes forever and turns into a ripply mess, maybe the whole panel,

but if it goes well and seems intuitive to you, then a partial makes more sense.  The professionals don't

often agree on this, either, and most that I've watched make the decision on a car- by- car basis,

especially looking at the fit and finish of the replacement panel, and how hard it'll be to

make the seams around the perimeter look right.  Also, no harm in cutting away the part of the car you're sure

you're going to have to replace, and having a look- see.  That inner -to- outer fender lip's a real bugger to get right,

and it's easy to ripple the outer while you're in there.

($3800NZ?  I'd have gone shell- shopping with my sawzall!!!)

 

  Do be careful when you close up that open seam- it will try to shrink like crazy, says one who

has done that.  Grind early, often, hammer when needed, and don't be afraid to guidecoat and sand your metal.  It's a real aid to learning.

Also use the length of your hand along the panel- at first, it won't feel like much, but if you guidecoat it and watch as

you go, your hand will soon learn how a high and a low spot feels.  And once it learns, it knows for all levels of bodywork,

even to the high- build primer stage. 

 

Good luck!

 

t

[jdamm]

chris- all sorted, just finished that off- thanks for pointing that out!

toby- once again you prove to be a walking 02 dictionary, unfortunately here in New Zealand there aren't that many 02's to begin with let alone good condition shells people are willing to sell, us kiwi's seem to have a knack for holding onto collectable cars, for example, in Christchurch where i am from and live there is a genuine cologne capri and zakspeed escort that still get taken out to the track and trashed regularly, as they should be! I think the escort is 1 of 2 remaining worldwide and the capri will be similarly rare.

anyway getting off topic, thanks for the pointers, ive just tacked in a brace and im going to make a start on the spot welds around the fender to see how sound it is.

i will report back if i hit any unknowns.

thank you

 

julian

[jdamm]

TobyB. i've got a quick question for you,regarding the spot welding at the fender lip on the rear side panel to the outer panel of the wheel arch, ive got a 5-10mm gap between the to panels and i'm concerned if i clamp it over and weld it off i'm going to have a different shape and/or a different wheel overhang, the car has taken a hit as mentioned above but pushing the fender lip over 10mm changes the shape of the panel more than i'm comfortable with.

have you any info on what to match or set off? i've got the side panel clamped to the car with 99% lining up just the inner and outer fender join to sort....... 

thanks in advance

julian

[Tommy]

I've done that job and it looks like you ended up doing it pretty much same way as I did. I found it uncomfortable to weld the wheel arch panels (inner and outer). I used 3M panel glue there.
This stuff I think http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MMM0/08115/N0400.oap?ck=Search_N0400_-1_-1&pt=N0400&ppt=C2392

It would fill some gap if the panels are not fitting exactly together but I think the gap should not be more than couple of millimeters. Try to pound the inner panel out to fit the outer shape. You can't just clamp them together because outer panel bends more easily. 

[harold]

I would also suggest sighting down the side to verify if the front and rear of the wheel opening line up in the same plane. The wheel opening is like a vertical plane cuts the panel.  I may not be describing it well, but there should be no out of plane twist from front to rear.   Use the other untouched side of the car as a reference.  The quarter panel is so flexible before it is welded in place; there is little to rely on for alignment around the wheel opening.

 

My car was hit slightly in the left rear, and the rear part of the inner fender didn't line up well.   I had to cut the triangular reinforcing panel in the trunk (for US squaretail models), and put a jack inside the inner fender to push it back (kind of to stretch the inner fender opening).  Yeah, don't be afraid to massage the inner panel!

 

Harold

[jdamm]

thanks Tommy & Harold,

i've spent an hour walking back and forward comparing panels from various positions, i'm a carpenter so sighting for straight is second nature but for me there are too many subtle curves to get a solid read from( enough to back my decision anyway),

the one thing i did try was using a spirit level to plumb off the lip and check for parallel at the edge of the waist line, i did this because the shape of panel directly under the waist edge and above the lip distorted the most when pushing the lip back to the inner, then compared the shape to the other side of the car and it doesn't want to go in much, if at all.... i will go check the twisting over the wheel cut out you mentioned Harold but i think that's with in reason.

luckily i'm not planning on using the same wheels again so should have a bit more breathing room but you could definitely tell (well the trained eye could) the left wheel was closer to the fender lip than the right before i did all of this hahahaha...... 

 

i will go have a bash on that inner and see if it'll go another 5-10mm otherwise i will look into using the panel glue you mentioned Tommy or a combination,

thanks guys, appreciated!

julian

[TobyB]

A bit late, but-

there's a bulge above the wheelarch that's supposed to be there.  It reads as a 'pudge'- if you were feeling drywall, you'd

swear it was a big puddle of plaster someone used to hide a small mouse body.

It's supposed to be there.  It feels wrong.  Spend time caressing the good side of your car, and you'll start to feel what I mean.

It's hard to see, it's hard to guidecoat.  

Oh, those 'fingerboards' for matching a curve- google 'profile gauge'- do a nice job for mirroring.  A 30- cm one might be long enough...

 

I bet you find your panel's supposed to be pulled in about 5mm, and the wheelarch is too far in by about the same.

 

You can move the inner wheelarch with a deadblow hammer- and yes, you can hit it hard.  If it's been hit, it'll usually stop, yeah, about 5-10mm

from where it's supposed to be, and get really hard to move.  If you don't mind the headache of refitting the panel numerous times, you can

reshape it, but it's tough- and it's supposed to be.

If you don't have Clecos then you can use aluminum pop rivets- use enough to get it stable, and then you can start thumping things around.

 

I welded one- and I hated the job, and didn't love the results.  But it was strong.  And it lasted 15 years where I feared it'd be a mess in 5.

 

Take your time, and good luck- you can tell when it's good enough for you!

 

hth

 

t

 

[jdamm]

Cheers TobyB! 

Yes the "pudge" was over distorting compared to the other side, ive just finished bashing and re shaping the inner and I've been pulling the panel on and off to get it right, the only bit now thats not quite right is the arch cut out having a small twist in it, obviously the result of the hit also moved the trunk floor over a touch, im inclined to fudge it a little here, I'm going to go grab a profile gauge just for a double check before i start welding it off.

Thanks 

Julian