other Will a Tii start and run without a warm-up regulator?

[JohnH]

Over the last few months my tii has lost its initial ability to idle on start up unless I give it a bit of accelerator (bit of gas, in US speak). Its always been a slow starter, but once running it has always idled at about 2000 rpm for the first couple of minutes then dropped back to a normal idle of 900 rpm. I could always start it standing outside of the car. 

 

Now it will fire up and run as long as I catch it on the accelerator and after ten seconds or so its all back to normal. Fast idle, then drops back as normal. 

 

I figure that the warm-up regulator is sticking. Other than sending it to Gus Redzus et al, has anyone on here actually overhauled one themselves? Can I just take it off and clamp up the two water and one air hose? 

 

 

[thehackmechanic]

The WUR does two things:

 

--It lifts up the enrichment lever (the thing that the "verboten screw" is on) to provide more fuel.

--It allows extra air into the manifold through a hose to the underside of the manifold that bypasses the throttle body.

 

Once the car has warmed up, the piston in the WUR rises, which lifts up the enrichment lever, swinging it down (it's a "lever," so swinging up one end swings the other end down) until the verboten screw is against its stop.

 

In theory, yes, you could live without the WUR provided that 1) you plug up the air hose that runs into the underside of the intake manifold and 2) you verify that the enrichment lever is fully down with the verboten screw sitting against its stop.  Then, in theory, it would be not unlike starting a carbureted car without a choke.

 

If you have already bypassed a malfunctioning thermo time relay with a manual switch to the cold start valve, then you're already squirting in as much gas as you like, and you have control over the amount of air with the throttle pedal.

 

But I've never done it, and I have no idea how well it would work.

 

Interesting idea though.

 

--Rob

 

[lilmo]

1 hour ago, thehackmechanic said:

 

But I've never done it, and I have no idea how well it would work.

 

Interesting idea though.

 

--Rob

 

This

[conkitchen]

If I may suggest an option. Perhaps use a Bosch 320i aux air valve which is electric controlled to provide more air at cold start. You could even mount it using the e21 valve cover which will also work with your tii intake plenum. 

[LarsAlpina]

WUR does not lift anything up, it pulls down the lever when engine is cold against the power of the spring that should be mounted there. Filling of the insert of the WUR expands when engine is getting warm and moves up the air regulation cone and the big "washer" mounted on top so that the lever should be left untouched once the engine is warm.

 

 

You don´t have to take the WUR off to see if it is stuck, you can see it moving while still mounted in the car. "A" should be 9-10mm and "B" should be 4mm when engine is warm. Maybe check that first as normally the rpm at idle shouldn´t change much from cold to warm - maybe 100 to 200 but at least not 1100.

 

Engine should start without the WUR if it isn´t too cold outside. Most of the race engines with butterfly or slider do no longer use a WUR. You can shortcut the water hoses and seal the aux air hose. Don´t use the cold start valve too long, it may flood the engine.

 

Best regards, Lars.

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by LarsAlpina

[chargin]

It works with a "Cold Start" override button instead of the circuit.

I recently dropped in a Tii conversion and am running it this way. 

 

[Teelinger]

 I'm running into this same problem. 

 

Chargin, can you explain how you have yours set up?

 

James

[chargin]

To be clear, my car has the WUR but not the electronic circuit.

The circuit is what I have been told is the usual failure point, not the 40+ year old mechanical valve. Without the electric circuit I just ran +/- wire set to the injector on the throttle body and then back to a "Push" on button. When I fire up the car I give it two blast, then possibly a third and forth while I'm awaiting the WUR to kick in. Once that's happening and the cars running at about 1400 RPM all is good until warm up then the idle drops to nine hundred.

 

 

 

 

[JohnH]

Everyone, thanks for your contributions.

 

Chagrin, the one thing that I know is working on mine is the electronic cold start circuit. It has a new TTS (Thermo Time Switch), New loom and guaranteed good and tested by myself timer box. I used to have a cut out switch to kill the CSI (Cold Start Injector) when I was hot starting, but that has gone now.

 

Here is a couple of pics with the engine cold. It hasnt been run for a couple of days.

First the Verbotten Screw gap of 3.81mm;

 

 

and secondly the top of the warm up device;

 

 

I have never touched anything. The gap is what it has been for the last fifteen years. The only thing I have touched is the idle screw on the tuna can, when I was attempting to set the ignition timing using a timing light. I gave up on that and used my ear instead. I'm still getting pinking at anything over 4000rpm at full throttle. Better than it was, but still not good enough. I can bang the throttle open at 1000rpm in 5th and just pulls, no drama, no pinking until it reaches 4000 or just over. In retospect I think that my start-up problems began occurring then.

 

I only mention these things so you experts can diagnose with all the facts.

 

I will give it a good run tomorrow and take a few pics and measurements and report back then

 

  

[LarsAlpina]

Gap at the forbidden screw (verbotene Schraube) doesn´t matter now.

 

In the tuna can you can only adjust the mixture for idle, has about no influence on full or partial load (you can´t really enrichen the mixture at 4000 in there, if I understood your words right).

 

Important: Correctly check your timing before doing anything else. Check your dizzy if the centrifugal advance unit still works as it should or if maybe the springs inside are tired or broken. You do have a tii dizzy, don´t you? Tii is quite sensible on incorrect timing (and e.g. wrongly adjusted valves also). Get the surroundings to work 99-100% properly first, before (maybe) working on the K-Fish.

 

Will be on holiday for some days from tomorrow on and might not be able to write anything in here while I´m out. Not that I think my words would be too important - many others on the FAQ that should know as good or better than me on the K-Fish. Just don´t want it to look impolite, if I might not react for some time from now on.

 

Best regards, Lars.

Edited August 30, 2016 by LarsAlpina

[JerryC]

Second Lars' suggestion to get the valve lash and timing correctly. An easy dizzy check is to watch the timing mark at idle. Is it rock solid, or jumping around? A jumpy timing mark could be indication of loose dizzy timing advance system - i.e., worn cam, springs, weights, etc.

 

I've noticed that cold engine driveability improves noticeably after a valve adjust. My normal practice is to adjust the valves in the morning after the engine has sat overnight to ensure it has cooled completely, then warm it up to set everything else. Not that much reason is needed, but it's a good excuse for a short drive to get coffee via the "scenic route".   After valve lash and timing are working to spec, the fuel controls should be easier to set up.

 

[davrianmad]

The lower water pipe has snapped off my warm up unit, I have not been able to find a replacemen. So I am at present forced to run with out the unit, although I still have fitted as surports the throttle linkage, and the spring fitted to threaded shaft holds the enrichment cam closed. My current issue is finding a way of sealing off the air feed into the bottom of the manifold, I. purchased a Samco cap which would do the job but I have not found away to put the cap in place with totally dismantling the manifold, I am currently looking for plug for original pipe to seal off the air flow.

[dlacey]

57 minutes ago, davrianmad said:

My current issue is finding a way of sealing off the air feed into the bottom of the manifold,

Agree plugging the pipe is the simplest option... Or you could consider leaving the pipe in place and then move the WUR air regulating cone up the threaded shaft to block the air. You can safely lever the WUR shaft up against the spring pressure...that should expose a small grub screw in the side of the cone...with the screw loose you should be able to spin the cone up the shaft to a point where air is blocked.

[davrianmad]

So have blocked off the air pipe, I can't seem to lift the warm up unit cone up or undo the top screw plate, would need to make a tool to undo it.

The car is incredibly hard to start and keep running much harder that my Davrian and its twin 40s. 

I have since found some warm up units on ebay, but there are in the USA for £1500.00 plus shipping or £980.00 plus shipping from Columbia. There is one for £1200.00 but the sell will not ship to UK.

[dlacey]

is your electric start valve & timer relay working? That provides the fuel to start the car and run it for the first ~4-40 seconds depending on coolant temp.