electrical and ignition 123\Tune+ Bluetooth Dizzy mini Review and discussion

[justadude]

Quickest review ever: This should be a really simple unit to install, and it is however if you try and follow the directions to the T you may end up with a little confusion or at least I did. 

Confusion 1. Instructions tell you to install dizzy with engine at TDC cyl 1, the rotate the distributor until a green LED light illuminates indicating that the unit recognizes TDC. The issue I ran into was that this led is beneath an aluminum disc that is slotted so in my case the light was coming on before it was visible through the slots, you can keep rotating the body until the light is visible but your car won't start. I found that I had to pull the unit out and reengage the drive gear several times in anticipation of where the slotted window would allow visibility of the green led so that I could se exactly at which point it illuminated. Got that figured out but car still wouldn't start. Hmm?

 

Confusion 2. The instructions state that once you have the green LED lit up you are good to start the car. I assumed this to be true because that is what the instructions said but Car will not start if you follow the instructions to the T. I also assumed that because this was a digital programmed advance curve that this preloaded curve would be set to opperate the vehicle when set per instructions IE distributer set at TDC as indicated by the green LED. No mention is given to further advancing the dizzy manually and to be honest I didn't expect there to be since this was a programable unit. Well when it wouldn't start again I pulled up curve in the iOS APP and sure enough the timing curve that came preloaded at 0 degrees at idle. I decided to just remap the curve adding a static timing of 10 degrees and see what happens. Well after doing that it started right up.

 

Confusion 3. My goal now is to set a timing curve that is really close to a factory, non smog, bosch 008 with vacuum advance and then slightly tune form there. My car is all stock except for a weber 32/36. Programing the Advance curve is very straight forward, I just used the blue book as a reference and set 10° at 850rpm, 15°@1000, 25°@1400, 37°@2500, 40°@2700, 42°8000. Then I set the MAP curve too give advance of 10°@22inHG 8°18inHG tapering down to 0°@7.5inHG, I also set this to start at 800rpm in the APP. Main issue I am encountering here is that no advance is seen at idle of 850rpm. Everything set in the APP indicates that I should be getting my extra 10° of advance at idle where I should see full manifold vacuum. Yes I have the Map sensor connect to manifold not ported vacuum at the carb. 

 

When I drive the car through the RPM range under different loads and watch the dashboard on the APP it appears that the Vacuum advance is function properly across the different conditions, for example at cruise I am getting my extra 10° of advance, when I quickly decelerate I again get my vacuum advance and actually the car is running beautifully. but when the car is at idle it will not advance as I have programmed into the APP under the MAP curve. 

 

You can see in my latest curves below that I manually added the extra 10° to the idle portion of the advance curve because I can't seem to get the MAP curve to affect the idle range.

 

Summary: Runs much better then my stock 008. The Bluettooh APP seems very limited compared to the program available for the USB version of this 123ignition. For example you can't save different curves in the IOS APP so every time you make a change you have to keep a hand written log of your last curves. This seems ridiculous and it would be really handy to be able to save a few different curves for testing purposes. 

 

I will continue to log my progress and failures on this thread as I continue my adventure with this.

 

[jrhone]

Cool...there are a number of 123 Tunes in use now.  There was a VERY long thread here as well...like 23 pages....

 

I LOVE the way the car runs with the 123 Tune.  Keep us posted on the specifics.

Edited August 29, 2016 by jrhone

[justadude]

44 minutes ago, jrhone said:

Cool...there are a number of 123 Tunes in use now.  There was a VERY long thread here as well...like 23 pages....

 

I LOVE the way the car runs with the 123 Tune.  Keep us posted on the specifics.

jrhone, I just found your review of it. Would you mind posting some screen shots of your late advance curves and MAP curves on this thread? Also couple of questions for you, are you using manifold vacuum or ported vacuum for a signal to you MAP sensor? From the looks of your Map curve I would guess you are running it off the Carb because you have it activating at lower Vacuum levels. 

[arminyack]

Agreed...my car runs awesome with it. Day after day, as my daily driver

 

[jrhone]

3 minutes ago, justadude said:

jrhone, I just found your review of it. Would you mind posting some screen shots of your late advance curves and MAP curves on this thread? Also couple of questions for you, are you using manifold vacuum or ported vacuum for a signal to you MAP sensor? From the looks of your Map curve I would guess you are running it off the Carb because you have it activating at lower Vacuum levels. 

 

I'll take some screen shots tomorrow.  I'm running my vacuum straight from the Weber 38 carb.  By no means do I have it perfect.  It can still use some tweaking but its running pretty good.  

[justadude]

1 minute ago, jrhone said:

 

I'll take some screen shots tomorrow.  I'm running my vacuum straight from the Weber 38 carb.  By no means do I have it perfect.  It can still use some tweaking but its running pretty good.  

To be honest this has been my biggest question with this unit is the MAP vacuum advance curve and from all I have dug up on many different articles is that The benefits of pulling vacuum signal from manifold is that you can get Advance at idle, when manifold vacuum is high. The stock 02 Bosch used manifold vacuum as well so at idle you get full advance onto of your static setting. Pulling from the carb gives you Vacuum as the throttle plate opens so don't really help with idle advance or deceleration or cruise, other time you have lean mixture. 

 

How are you getting proper advance at Idle? I had to program it into my advance curve because for some reason my MAP curve don't affect total advance under 1400 rpm even though I changed it to come in at 800 rpm??

[Simeon]

What actual vacuum is your engine pulling at idle. You set it for 10 degrees at 22"hg, is your engine making 22"hg at idle?

 

if it is a bit worn then it might not be. Perhaps measure the actual vacuum produced by your engine at idle and then set this value for max vac advance. 

[Justin99]

About 6 months ago I installed the 123 Tune (non Bluetooth) and did not seem to encounter any of the problems you had, despite being relatively inexperienced with these things. I suspect that this is because I did not read the instructions and played with the unit (including programming) on my kitchen bench before installing it, not really bothering with the instructions during installation apart from following the directions re TDC and the indicator light. Car fired up first time and has not missed a beat since and drives strongly. Although I wonder if with a little more fine tuning I'll be able to wring a little bit more out of it (yet to hear the engine ping on low RPM load, so I suspect I have more room for advance). The MAP sensor is running off manifold vacuum on a 32/36 carb. 

[justadude]

8 hours ago, Simeon said:

What actual vacuum is your engine pulling at idle. You set it for 10 degrees at 22"hg, is your engine making 22"hg at idle?

 

if it is a bit worn then it might not be. Perhaps measure the actual vacuum produced by your engine at idle and then set this value for max vac advance. 

Simeon, good question. Yes it is pulling 22"hg at idle. So what I have noticed from looking through every one else's screen shots of their MAP curves is that all are set to have the MAP curve start at 1400-1500rpm. With a stock vacuum advance dizzy you would be getting full advance at idle 15°+what ever your base timing is 7-10° that is why I changed the MAP curve to come it at 800rpm, however it absolutely doesn't advance my timing at idle, above idle it does add advance so that is a little confusing. Maybe they either put that in as a safeguard which doesn't make sense because why would they allow you to change the rpm value?? At any rate my work around so far is just to add the timing into the ignition curve instead. 

[Simeon]

There is a mix of units in play here. In the table you posted above it is in kilo pascals    and your vacuum measurements are in inches of mercury. Is this your problem?

 

26Kpa is 7.7"Hg. I also note that the map gauge on the app is in bar. Do those points also need a minus? They are negative pressure after all?

[justadude]

17 hours ago, Simeon said:

There is a mix of units in play here. In the table you posted above it is in kilo pascals    and your vacuum measurements are in inches of mercury. Is this your problem?

 

26Kpa is 7.7"Hg. I also note that the map gauge on the app is in bar. Do those points also need a minus? They are negative pressure after all?

Here is how the math works, on the kP scale 100 represents atmospheric pressure less then 100 represents lower the atmospheric as would be seen in the intake manifold. When using a Atmospheric as represented in inHG=29.5 The Vacuum test gauge starts at 0 when it imposed to atmospheric pressure so as a lower pressure is applied it represents a change measured in inHG. For this example at idle if your tester is reading 22inHG that does not mean that that number is what the actual pressure inside you intake manifold, it is the difference between the starting point of 0 and the actual pressure in relation to atmospheric. So in order to convert you test readings to kP I use this method.

 

If 22inHG is read on tester, 22inHG-29.5inhg=7.5inHG actual pressure. Now to convert to kP 7.5inHG X 33.8639=253.97925/10  So 22inHG=25.397925kP

If you were to just take your gauge reading in inHG and convert to kP without factoring in atmospheric you would get 75kP which would not be correct. 

 

I have attached a graphic.

 

Summary-the MAP sensor is measuring Absolute pressure, the Vacuum test gauge is measuring pressure relative to Atmospheric so the reading has to be subtracted from atmospheric before it can be converted to an absolute pressure scale such as kP

[Stevenola]

I recently eliminated vac advance at idle and went all mechanical instead of a combination of both, now starting at 15 degrees mechanical.  I kept vac advance for cruise and low-load conditions only (+10 degrees).  Drops out to just mechanical when I get aggressive with the right foot.  Some road testing is needed to determine this area between idle vac level and when you want it to drop out when you bang the accel pedal.  This determines the curve to load.  Simple and works great.

[justadude]

2 hours ago, Stevenola said:

I recently eliminated vac advance at idle and went all mechanical instead of a combination of both, now starting at 15 degrees mechanical.  I kept vac advance for cruise and low-load conditions only (+10 degrees).  Drops out to just mechanical when I get aggressive with the right foot.  Some road testing is needed to determine this area between idle vac level and when you want it to drop out when you bang the accel pedal.  This determines the curve to load.  Simple and works great.

Thanks for the reply, would you mind posting your MAP and ignition curves on here?

[Stevenola]

6 minutes ago, justadude said:

Thanks for the reply, would you mind posting your MAP and ignition curves on here?

 

Here's one:

 

 

[justadude]

1 minute ago, Stevenola said:

 

Here's one:

 

 

I also are using manifold or ported vacuum singnal? Thanks.