engine and drivetrain EFI or Dual Webers

[RadicalRacing]

I am doing a restomod build on a 1974 2002 adding a 5 speed, Bilstein sport shocks, H&R lowering springs, ST sway bars, Wildwood big brakes front and rear, 15 x 7 Hartage wheels, E21 Recaro seats etc.  My last decision:  EFI/Megasquirt or dual Webers.  I would like the Forums opinions regarding drivability and performance not installation.  I have done several dual carb cars and there is a shop in my hometown that has done very successful Megasquirt installations for several friends of mine.  So I feel confident in regards to the installation and tuning of either system.    I want a quick street car with low end torque rather than a race car on the street.    Is 175 HP possiible?

[2002Scoob]

What are you thinking for internals? Camshaft choice? Pistons/ what compression ratio? You're going to need think about these things beyond just webers or EFI if you want to see numbers like 175 hp. 

 

I can't yet comment on Drivability of DCOE's just yet, as I'm currently doing a top-end rebuild (no money for pistons/machining of the block yet) with DCOE 40's and a Schrick 292. From all the research and reading you can make them very streetable, but some people struggle with getting them setup properly and staying that way. I imagine if I get all the way down the road and my car's street manners aren't the best, I'll probably start lying to myself that it's great, because it's taken so much work/time/money/effort to get here, haha.

 

I'm no expert, but there's lots of those on here. With my setup as is, I would be very happy if I got 130-145hp. Your low end torque on DCOE's is going to come from your choke size, which is going to keep your peak HP lower. 

 

For 175, I imagine you're going to need a much more aggressive cam than my setup (316+?) DCOE 45's, and higher compression pistons. 

[downhillwolf]

I have webers 40's on my car, basically normal 2002 with Alpina set it to A1 about 1976. Needed to resize progression holes since gasoline has changed here in Europe. Once the jets are correct(it's a long way to get there if you have no experience). After 1000 miles I resync them and reset idle mixture screws. Takes about 30min with removing ti airfilter housing. Sync depends on your throttle linkage. But just to get you the right view, if you do not like to tweak every here and now, consider yourself not a weber person
EFI vs dual webers is basically almost the same, EFI better straigh from idle but webers get you better torque also better end HP if set correctly. If I put it how I felt friends EFI vs my webers, but if you like the growl just go for webers

[GazM3]

fuel consumption will be better with the fuel injection.  webers do work nice with the M10 and will flow alot better than the single throttle body manifold also.  As stated above 175bhp streetable is doable, especialy if you have access to RON98 (MON93) fuel.  Cubic inches and high compression will help.  All parameters have to be matched.  No point having a big Schrick 304 with 8.5:1 compression, and having 11:1 with a small cam will be no good either.  High compression makes everything work, and has the effect of calming a large cam.

[TobyB]

Quote

restomod

 

You need a 4bbl Holley...

 

...sticking out the hood.  Maybe even that tiny blower from a Merc or Pontiac v6.

 

 

 

Seriously, if you care about how it looks and sounds, DCOEs.  If things like cold starting, mpg, emissions and tip- in throttle matter more, EFI.

 

t

 

[AceAndrew]

8 hours ago, RadicalRacing said:

   I want a quick street car with low end torque rather than a race car on the street.    Is 175 WHP possiible?

 

Yes it is possible, but there will be a long list of trick (re:expensive) things that will need implementing if you are looking for 175whp and a chubby torque curve.  Namely a beastly stroker bottom end (start looking for S14 parts), lot's of porting, and a fat cam up top.  HOWEVER, that would seem to contradict your stated goal of making a quick street car rather than a street-driven race car.

 

As for EFI vs. Webers; both can be setup to be drivable.  I'm with Toby, Holly and Blower.

 

[Preyupy]

If you want 175hp + lots of low-midrange torque + nice idle and drivability out of a 2 liter M10 you are going to need some kind of forced induction.  My recommendation is EFI and a turbo.  With lots of compression (you will  have a problem with detonation on pump fuel) you can see as much as 150 lb/ft of torque at the peak.  If that happens around 4500 rpm ( probably something like a 304 cam) it will fall off to around 130-135 lb/ft @6500 rpm that works out to 160-165 hp.  You will loose a lot of torque under 3000 rpm with that much cam plus to get that much air flow at the top end you will need at least 36mm chokes in the carbs which will also hurt the low and mid range drivability (EFI can help you get some of that back)  If you drop it down to a reasonable compression ratio so you can run 93 octane pump gas you are going to loose probably 10 lb/ft and 10 hp.  You can get your HP back by turning the engine to a higher rpm with a different cam but you are going to loose bottom end torque at the same time. 

 

Remember the engine is just a big air pump, the more air you move the more power you make.  HP is how many pounds of bricks you can move in a given amount of time.  Torque is how many bricks can you pick up at one time.  If you move 100 bricks 100 feet in 10 minutes you have expended X amount of HP, it does not matter if you make 50 trips with 2 bricks or 4 trips with 25 bricks. It's the difference between a 5liter V8 turning 2000 rpm and a 2liter 4 cylinder turning 5000rpm 

 

Like Andrew said you can always go for the increased displacement of a S14 EVO crankshaft and a 3 mm overbore and build yourself a 2300cc engine. 

[steve k.]

BTW, what EFI are you considering.  There are huge differences between 320 injection, 318 injection, or individual throttle bodies.  If all is equal, EFI will be better as you are allowing a computer to control all aspects instead of vacuum in the carb and springs in the distributor. Expect to spend a lot more money on EFI vs carbs.

 

steve k.

[RadicalRacing]

The guy here in Chico uses Megasquirt with individual throttles bodies and his custom made intake manifolds.  He said he can do his part for under $1500.   He charged a buddy of mine $1200 for the setup on his 1969 Toyota Corona 22 RE.  Of course I have to supply a good rebuilt engine.  I am still gathering information as to what pistons, crank, head and cam I will use.  Obviously I need the whole combination to work well together.    He says he can tune the Megasquirt to any engine I give him from mild to wild. 

 

Maybe 175 hp is too ambitious for carbs or straight EFI.   I have been looking at the Sprintex superchargers.  Met them at SEMA and was very impressed with their products, though they are quite expensive.  They have nothing specifically for a 2002 so air intake and manifold will have to be custom made.  If I decide on the Sprintex unit it seems best to go with EFI for the tuneability.

 

Is there any downside, other than cost,  to using a stroker crank with supercharging?

 

A few years ago I saw a video (don't remember if it was on TV or Youtube) showing some guys in Australia building a supercharged 2002.   Can't find it now.  

Edited July 21, 2016 by RadicalRacing
Mistyped Toyota motor model

[jrhone]

If u want 175hp.... Look into M20 swaps.  180hp stock.  200hp with light mods. 250-300 with forced induction.  LOTS of bolt on options.  Or a forced induction M42 if you want to stick with a 4 cylinder motor.

[TobyB]

S54 or bust.

 

t

[jrhone]

1 hour ago, TobyB said:

S54 or bust.

 

t

 

 

Haha! ??

[jdeitch]

I recently installed a hybrid S14/M10 (8-valve) engine in my 2002. Le Tran did an awesome job. 2.3L. Knife-edge crank, twin Dellorto DHLA 45, big valve head, Pete McHenry cam, MSD ignition. Tons of torque. Pulls like a freight train. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by jdeitch

[RyanEsca]

I recently installed a hybrid S14/M10 (8-valve) engine in my 2002. Le Tran did an awesome job. 2.3L. Knife-edge crank, twin Dellorto DHLA 45, big valve head, Pete McHenry cam, MSD ignition. Tons of torque. Pulls like a freight train. 

Any pics?

[jdeitch]