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Bosch Distributor Mechanical Advance Limiting Screws


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I think Daron needs to send you his Sun Distributor machine...

 

I've been saying that for weeks...

 

t

 

"I learn best through painful, expensive experience, so I feel like I've gotten my money's worth." MattL

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On 4/23/2016 at 2:31 PM, '76Mintgrun'02 said:

Hi Chris, I have enjoyed the movies I have seen, but it has only been a few, maybe two....  I guess the answer is yes, I am a fan, but not enough of one to understand your reason for asking... I am curious though.  

 

this guy?  he looks like someone I could relate to...  Tom

5f5e77a039891273c0824871ad88fb88.jpg

 

Haha, that's a great picture.

 

I was re-reading the thread and looking at the intricate devices that you have made for this project and others, and it reminded me of the very imaginative mechanical implements featured in Tim Burton movies like Beetlejuice and The Nightmare Before Christmas.

 

Go back and watch them and you'll see what I mean. :)

 

Chris

  • Like 1

Chris A
---'73 2002tii Chamonix w/ flares, sunroof, 15x7s, LSD, Bilstein Sports w/ H&R springs, upgraded sway bars, E21 Recaros
---'86 Porsche 944 Turbo grey street/track car

---'81 Alfa Romeo GTV6 rescued from junkyard, Lemons Rally/"GT" car

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On 4/24/2016 at 0:30 PM, TobyB said:
  Quote

I think Daron needs to send you his Sun Distributor machine...

 

It seems like that would require too many stamps.  Those things are big.  

 

I am sort of pondering the idea of setting up some kind of benchtop testing station, which uses my timing light as the brain, to give rpm and flash on a degree wheel attached to the distributor shaft, or the chuck that grips it.  A coil, fed 12V and connected to the distributor, with one spark plug lead to attach the light's clamp to, might be all that is needed.  Of course I might be over simplifying/under thinking it.  I would hope the whole contraption would fit in a shoebox, minus the drill motor, which could go back in the drawer.

 

It is hard to know what to try to change at this point.  The biggest recent change was the dip in the curve at 2k rpm.  From 2500 to 3500 rpm it is now running 2-4 degrees less advance than it was, prior to adjusting the limiting screws.  I am wondering whether this needs to be corrected, or if it is possibly an improvement.

 

In another thread, I mentioned a contraption which might allow for adjusting the advance while driving, by rotating the distributor using a knob in the console, or under the dash, or someplace within reach.

037.JPG

 With such a device, one could (in theory) move the advance up or down to note changes in performance.  The rotation would obviously move the whole curve, but the adjustments could be used to monitor differences at specific rpms.  That is the idea anyway.

 

How to measure these differences was mentioned in yet another thread, where I made a simple 'acceleratorometer' to try and detect differences in power output, which result from changes in the curve.

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/forums/topic/179172-acceleratorometer/

 Translating such readings into 'universal language', such as G-force, is beyond my abilities/aspirations.  I would just be trying to detect changes.

 

So, tieing these three threads together seemed like a good idea.  In order to decide what to do to the existing curve, I might connect the controller (not finished) and make a few runs, starting at a set rpm and watching the meter (not yet refined).  Then move the advance up a couple degrees and try again.  Then a couple more degrees.  If the meter was sensitive enough, it might give clues as to how I should attempt to alter my curve.

 

In the meantime, the engine seems to be running well, so I guess there is no rush.  It's just fun to play with this stuff.


Tom

 

 

     

 

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I turned the adjustment screws back out 3/4 turn, hoping to take that dip out of the curve.  It helped, but also raised the total advance, which is not surprising.  At this point, I am confused as to why adjusting the screws would affect anything other than the upper limit.  If anyone has an explanation I would like to hear it.

 

On the latest graph, the lower line is before the adjustment and the purple one is after 3/4 turn out.  The red is with the vac pod connected (after adjusting).

 

003.JPG

I am also seeing a bouncing BB at certain rpms, while it is very steady at others.  Toby once mentioned harmonic vibrations, when discussing worn distributor mechanisms.  I suspect this is what I am seeing.  One place it gets jumpy is between 1650-1700 rpm.  I should be taking notes as to where all this is happening.  (what I should be doing is messing with the fresher #021 instead).  I also think the jumpiness increases when plotting the vacuum curve.  I guess I need a notepad next to the graph, while plotting.  Maybe I will make a red line along the bottom axis of the graph, which gets jumpy (like a seismograph), at the affected rpms.  If I was using Nathan's scale on the pulley,  it could actually be fairly accurate.  Perhaps there should be two seismographic readings, one red and one black; for with and without the vacuum pod connected.  I will try adding that information next time around.  

 

Tom

Edited by '76Mintgrun'02

     

 

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Tom,

Think you might have a use for this in any of your seismo tests...?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Seismograph-SIE-Co-Magnetic-Recorder-Type-MR-12-Houston-Texas-Aluminum-/262388558954?hash=item3d1793ac6a:g:UcsAAOxyB0VRwJXA

The price is right.

LOL!

-Bob

 

-Bob
(current: 1972 Malaga 2002, VIN 2584644, build date July 26, 1972)

 

Previous: 1973 Sahara 2002 #2585896 (RIP), 1969 1600, 1971 2002, 1964 Triumph Herald convertible, 1965 Triumph Herald convertible, 1961 Triumph TR3A, 1967 Triumph TR4A-irs, 1959 Austin Healey 100/6, and about 10 other cars (most of which were quite boring)...

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Thanks for the link Bob.  Unfortunately the listing is in Texas and says 'local pick up only'.

Oh, and since you took my advice and bought the same Innova timing light as me, I thought I would share this:

 

I just repaired my Innova timing light for the fourth time.

The first repair was after I burned the wire on the exhaust manifold (and then shortened the wire to the plug-wire clamp).

The second repair was to the positive wire clamp connection.  Poor crimping on soft insulation caused the wire to break there.

The third was shown above.

The last one was just like the second, only it was the ground clamp this time.

038.JPG

 

(Luna assumes working on the 2002 leads to test-runs, so she stays close by)

040.JPG

 

It has been soldered and crimped, with new fuel hose grips on the clamp.  UPgrade.

043.JPG

I would still recommend this light.  These are just a couple things to look at if it suddenly stops working.

Tom

Edited by '76Mintgrun'02

     

 

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I have been thinking of trying a different way of plotting the advance curve.

The 'graph' below is laid out like the face of the 2002 tachometer.

(It appears as though 500 rpm occupies 20 degrees of the circle).
Each of the concentric circles represents 2 degrees of advance.

I have plotted my current advance curve in that format below

053.JPG

It might be fun to make a cut out of the curve and use it as an overlay on the tachometer.

That way I could tell at a glance how much advance there is at a given rpm.

That seems...  practical, doesn't it?

 

EDIT:  I did push this idea a little further along, by making a clear plastic cut out, which fits inside the tach bezel.  As you can see, the graph will need to be scaled down a bit.  020.JPGI like that an 18 gauge brad nail in place of the tack spike, turns it into a nice little aluminum knob.  Using the cut out over the tack, I determined that I was wrong about the spacing being 20 degrees/500 rpm.  It looks like it is only 15 degrees, so I will adjust the graph, when I make it smaller.  018.JPGI suppose the tach needle could have the advance degree lines marked on it, so the cut out would only need the red line, shown in the spiral graph... and maybe a magnifying glass installed in front of the tach :huh:

 

Okay, maybe 'practical' was not the right word to use... 

Tom

 

Edited by '76Mintgrun'02

     

 

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  • 1 month later...

Now we're cooking with gas!

(as my Grandpa used to say)

016.JPG

Thank you for telling me about the Craigslist ad, Nathan.

She's a beauty.  (and for less than half the cost of a 123 distributor :P)

It belonged to an old Datsun mechanic, so this little machine is moving up in the world!

 

Aside from the strobe needing repair, it is all there and 'working'.

Hopefully it is just a capacitor (kit $40) and not the Flashtube ($225 out of stock) or the Trigger Coil ($150):(

009.JPG007.JPG

This guy repairs them and sells the parts to do it yourself, which I intend to try to do.

http://paramountd.com/parts.html

Apparently someone has come up with a high power LED conversion, which may be the way to go.

It is funny how one repair seems to lead to another... (not funny, haha).

Good fun though.

Tom

 

 

     

 

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Tom,

How cool is that??? 

Ever onward!!!

-Bob

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-Bob
(current: 1972 Malaga 2002, VIN 2584644, build date July 26, 1972)

 

Previous: 1973 Sahara 2002 #2585896 (RIP), 1969 1600, 1971 2002, 1964 Triumph Herald convertible, 1965 Triumph Herald convertible, 1961 Triumph TR3A, 1967 Triumph TR4A-irs, 1959 Austin Healey 100/6, and about 10 other cars (most of which were quite boring)...

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On 4/20/2016 at 0:56 PM, zinz said:

I think Daron needs to send you his Sun Distributor machine...

 

 

You are off the hook, Daron : )

 

I was told that the strobe was not working, but last night I turned off the lights and looked closely, to find that it does work!! although it is very dim.

 

I have done a lot of cleaning already, and will try and gently clean the filthy Neon 'bulb', to see if that helps.

I will also remove the filthy little round window it shines through.  I doubt that will do enough, but worth a try.

 

What I would like to try, is disconnecting the Sun's 9V leads, adding 12V to the condenser and wiring up a coil and plug wires/plugs, so I can run my Innova gun, with the 404 Sun.  

 

They actually made an attachment, which mocks up the whole system like that.  

It shouldn't be too hard to make one.

 

I have enjoyed cleaning the machine and am delighted at how 'untouched' everything is.  I think I lucked out on this one.  It had been for sale for eight days, when Roadhog0 told me about the Craigslist ad, with no takers. 

 

The PO had wiped it down, before posting it.  I get the feeling it was pretty filthy, from years of being in storage.  I did not have to go far to find evidence.

002.JPG006.JPG

One big discovery was just how effective No.7 polishing compound is on old dirty paint.  It washes the grime out of the valleys of the hammerite paint, in a very effective, yet gentle way.

021.JPG

 

Of course that led to polishing the paint on the old cabinet it will likely be riding on (after the photo below).

One thing leads to another....

016.JPG

 

     

 

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So much awesomeness, right there... I know you are in Master-Tinker-heaven right now, Tom.  Can't wait to hear future reports!!!

 

Ed Z

'69 Granada... long, long ago  

'71 Manila..such a great car

'67 Granada 2000CS...way cool

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I am pretty excited about it.  A bit obsessed, actually.  I even turned the rear view mirror down, so I could look at it sitting in the back seat, on my way home from buying it  : ) 

 

Not a lot of progress to report, but I did clean the oil off of the neon tube, hoping it would brighten it up.001.JPG

I have been finding many more uses for microfiber towels, now that I am cutting them up.

I found that they stay together, even when they are cut into skinny strips... which work well for flossing parts.

 

I also disassembled and cleaned/lubed the little aluminum three jaw chuck.

013.JPG

The chuck is nice and tight.  I put the gears under the magnifying lamp and noticed little burrs forming from wear, so I filed them off and added little tiny chamfers, to help keep it from happening again.  The little (chuck key looking) gear is much harder than the larger one.  It took a diamond hone to knock its edges down.  

 

Most of the mess on the strobe came from someone over-oiling the chuck.

I reassembled it using a little Abu Garcia fishing reel grease; (that I've had since I was a kid).

 

023.JPG

The clean strobe is still much too dim.

I am hoping maybe a capacitor kit might brighten it up, but I'll need to do more research.

 

The dwell meter seems like a high quality instrument.  I hope I can make my timing light get along with the sun machine, so I can compare their readings.  It may be that the comparison happens once the distributor is back on the engine; as in, set it up on the Sun and check it with the Innova, once installed.

 

Thank you for the support Ed.  I too am looking forward to future reports, once it is fully operational.  

Tom

 

     

 

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                                                         Gauge face cleaning and glass cutting today.

021.JPG

                                                                    Alcohol and 409 for the WIN

024.JPG

                                                              I am glad they made such scrubbable faces.

 

the glass in the tachometer was broken, so I cut a new piece to replace it.

it was the first time trying this circle cutter.

003.JPG

it took a little shaping on the disc sander to really dial in the fit, but I am quite happy with it.

006.JPG

 

I contacted a gentleman on the Garage Journal forum, who sent me a PDF of an LED work around, to get it flashing with a high output LED at 12V, instead of the neon tube at 600V.  It does away with a lot of the original circuitry, which could be a good thing, but I do appreciate Vintage Originality.  The kit he is selling costs $170, including shipping.  

Edited by '76Mintgrun'02

     

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
I added this flex shaft, to drive that camshaft and spin the distributor.
I still need to make the flange that  mates to the cam, with a shaft for the chuck, as well as a handle holder.
(I sort of hate to get this clean head oily, though)
adding four spark plugs/cables and a coil/12V might allow for the use of the Innova timing light (?) 
006.JPG
This should allow me to set up the remote controlled timing adjuster, while standing at the bench.

Aside from turning this camshaft, I am excited about the new 1/4hp variable speed drive source.  
0-4k rpm.  Slow turning wire wheels are very useful.
Edited by '76Mintgrun'02

     

 

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