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Nice '72 tii on Bat


walkinfool

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Is this one done incorrectly? If so, what is incorrect about it? Not poking, I'm trying to understand the significance of all this.

I don't think there is any issue with a correctly replaced nose -- note that this is coming from someone who has had 3 out of 4 '02's with replaced noses. A snorkel on a tii, however, takes away some tiny piece of the car's "tii-ness." But I constantly hear owners, many who are in no position to actually know, say, "My car has never been in an accident of any sort; every panel is original from the factory." They're frequently wrong. But the lack of original panels is a more serious value issue on a $2.1 million Gullwing than it is on a $20,000 '02, where the penalty for a replacement nose is probably....$0!

Of course, if a replaced nose leads one to identify a material crease in an inner fender, you might have to ask about either the severity of an accident or the quality of a repair...

Regards,

Steve

Edited by Conserv

1976 2002 Polaris, 2742541 (original owner)

1973 2002tii Inka, 2762757 (not-the-original owner)

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(accidental post, see below!)

Edited by cda951

Chris A
---'73 2002tii Chamonix w/ flares, sunroof, 15x7s, LSD, Bilstein Sports w/ H&R springs, upgraded sway bars, E21 Recaros
---'86 Porsche 944 Turbo grey street/track car

---'81 Alfa Romeo GTV6 rescued from junkyard, Lemons Rally/"GT" car

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The discussion about this car is timely, as it seems to be a perfect amalgamation of the larger debate about the current state of the vintage/"collector" car market. 

 

I manage a Porsche/BMW repair shop, and we work on them all, old and new. In the last decade, I have seen the meteoric rise in vintage Porsche values, and it still amazes me to this day (though their values have somewhat plateaued of late). While this renewed interest in all things early Porsche has been somewhat lucrative for business, it has also sucked a lot of the fun out of the whole thing, because money does funny things to people. In the "old days," the majority of customers with vintage Porsches (and BMWs!) would invest money into their aging German machines because they truly loved them and wanted to keep them drivable and reliable.

 

However, the current fracas has changed things, and instead of doing things for themselves, once-rational people are now making decisions about their own cars based on "the market" or what some phantom future buyer would prefer. Many are afraid to drive their cars because they are worth so much, and that is sad! I can completely rebuild one of these cars, but I cannot nearly afford even a rusty 356 or 911 shell (I have a 944 Turbo, which I absolutely love!); even 914 prices are becoming stupid.

 

Now, "the market" has turned its collective attention to BMW '02s (and E9s, etc) and is finally appreciating them for what they are worth. While this is largely good for those of us who already own them, it does cast a pall on what makes these cars so appealing in the first place. A lot of '02s were made, which has historically kept values low. Therefore they have always been fun, accessible, and relatively affordable classics that the average guy/gal can afford to buy and work on themselves if they so choose, and have great fun doing so. Therefore, all-original cars in decent condition are at a premium, and are increasingly demanding prices that were unthinkable even a few years ago.

 

As they say, a rising tide lifts all boats, and all kinds of rust-buckets are coming to the surface with ridiculous asking prices; the worst part of this is that all kinds of flippers and shysters come out of the woodwork, looking to sucker honest people out of a buck. Luckily, forums such as this one and Bring A Trailer exist, and can serve a noble purpose by sussing out obvious examples of lipstick-wearing swine. This is often necessary, especially in the case of a car that is purported to be in "all-original/excellent" condition or is a "ground-up" or "frame-off" restoration" and is priced commensurately. Oftentimes, the purveyors of such vessels need to be kept honest, and it is good to have a remote panel of "experts" asking questions.

 

However, I think that such forums have also bred a culture of snipers who sit behind their keyboards and attempt to pick apart any car that comes across the screen. Again, this can serve a useful purpose, but this mentality seems to increasingly be applied to cars that seem to be represented fairly and accurately, such as this one. Now, I have not seen this car, and it could have hidden issues, but that is what a thorough PPI is for. The price doesn't seem outrageous, so quibbles such as a snorkel nose panel (when all of the VIN stampings, including the engine block match) can seem a bit trivial; most of the tiis I've seen have had the nose panel replaced, so who cares as long as it was done properly? Also, seats, wheels, and steering wheels are very easy to replace, so save your breath unless they are truly god-awful!

 

As the owner of a '73 tii with a (poorly) replaced nose panel with snorkel, I find the whole debate to be fairly amusing. I have every reason to believe that mine is an original tii, but it was well modified by its longtime previous owner (a dear old customer of mine who sadly passed away a few years back; I bought it from his family) back in the '80s and '90s when nobody gave a crap about the originality or value of a 2002tii. I absolutely love the car and would not change a thing. I drive the shit out of it, and it gets parked on the street and rained on (OK, not much of that until recently here in SoCal!). It has some rust creeping into the forward part of the rockers, and some more in the door bottoms and on the passenger floorboard, but that will be taken care of in time, and when it is, it will be restored to its current configuration, fender flares and all. Since taking ownership, I rebuilt the engine, replacing one non-original tii block with another. But, it runs like a champ and puts a smile on my face every time I get in it, or look at it.

 

While I am kind of rambling at this juncture, I guess my point is this: while we all have free will to do what we want with cars, and we are also free to criticize others for what they do or don't do with theirs, let's keep it reasonable. I like to drive my cars, and I do sometimes criticize garage queens and their anally retentive owners. I will also call bullshit when a car is blatantly misrepresented, but i don't feel the need to piss in someone's corn flakes if I don't prefer their choices in easily-reversible bolt-on parts or if a few trim screws are missing.  

 

Believe me, I do a LOT of PPIs, and I have picked apart a lot of cars in person in my line of work. But, I feel that a lot of internet punters seem to derive great pleasure in spotting some miniscule flaw or inconsistency and therefore denouncing the whole car as a dud. Let's keep things in perspective, people!

 

---Chris, who is allowing himself one more beer before bedtime.

Edited by cda951
  • Thanks 1

Chris A
---'73 2002tii Chamonix w/ flares, sunroof, 15x7s, LSD, Bilstein Sports w/ H&R springs, upgraded sway bars, E21 Recaros
---'86 Porsche 944 Turbo grey street/track car

---'81 Alfa Romeo GTV6 rescued from junkyard, Lemons Rally/"GT" car

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Geez that car looks pretty awesome to me. I have a Tii with no snorkel. But I have webers so it isn't a tii. But it isn't a non tii. I'm not losing sleep. Obviously we tend to attract the Anorak mindset but it is frivolous fun and everyone can be his/her own self-appointed authority of their internet domain. Harmless. But yes I'd rather not subject my own car to the scrutiny. If I were selling. I'm not. For now.

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Mars Attacks!

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Chris (cda951), absolutely dead nuts on.

The new book The Best Of The Hack Mechanic available at https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0998950742, inscribed copies of all books available at www.robsiegel.com

1972 tii (Louie), 1973 2002 (Hampton), 1975 ti tribute (Bertha), 1972 Bavaria, 1973 3.0CSi, 1979 Euro 635CSi, 1999 Z3, 1999 M Coupe, 2003 530i sport, 1974 Lotus Europa Twin Cam Special (I know, I know...)

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Good post, Chris. These cars were built to drive. If this or that isn't "correct", other than someone looking for a 100% correct museum piece, who cares? And the price tag on this one seems quite reasonable for what it is. Besides, how many 100% correct perfect 2002's are there in the world? And are those being driven? I bet not.

That said, as someone who is not expert on all things 2002 (far from it!), I enjoy learning the ins/outs of these cars. So, it's all good.

Edited by Beemeup

Anthony

----------------------------------------------------------------------

1972 2002 Atlantik

Bunch of old airhead BMW motorcycles

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From my experience:

 

This '72tii in Polaris silver shows at least *some* of the challenges faced when dealing with metallic-painted 2002s of this era. 

 

It is NOT the car offered on BaT, however, it is a "California Car," and very similar.

post-9207-0-64639500-1452996448_thumb.jp

post-9207-0-64135300-1452996488_thumb.jp

post-9207-0-06594500-1452996617_thumb.jp

post-9207-0-38539100-1452996686_thumb.jp

Edited by Delia

1973 2002tii - gone

Inka (aka "Orange Julius")

#2762756

1974 2002tii - gone

Polaris (aka "Mae West")

#2782824

1991 318is (aka) "O'Hara")

Brillantrot - High Visibility Daily Driver

BMW CCA #1974 (one of the 308)

deliawolfe@gmail.com

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Wow Delia. Please tell me that the car in the bottom picture is the same WIP car in the centre picture...PLEASE ?

It will give me a much needed boost for my WIP Tii project !!

It's got to be. Can't you see the sunroof in both photos!? ;-)

Regards,

Steve

Edited by Conserv

1976 2002 Polaris, 2742541 (original owner)

1973 2002tii Inka, 2762757 (not-the-original owner)

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Yes, it is indeed! 

 

Project began in 2008 and re-appeared at the Bay Area 02 Swap-N-Show in May 2015.

 

It is a matching numbers car with a freshly rebuilt engine converted to aluminum runners.

 

It is completely free of rust - not because it is an original California car - but because every panel that had rust was replaced - including the floor.  Replaced nose had the snorkel welded and filled.  Wiring is all new and controls have been upgraded to squaretail configuration (turnsignal is on the left). 

 

Headlights are Eurospec with H4 bulbs and  working "Citylights."

 

The car is fitted with a five speed transmission, 3.91 LSD, four wheel Wilwood brake calipers and Hardy & Beck three-piece modular wheels.

 

Dash was redone by "Just Dashes" in Van Nuys, CA.  Instrument cluster and tii clock were rebuilt at Palo Alto speedometer.

1973 2002tii - gone

Inka (aka "Orange Julius")

#2762756

1974 2002tii - gone

Polaris (aka "Mae West")

#2782824

1991 318is (aka) "O'Hara")

Brillantrot - High Visibility Daily Driver

BMW CCA #1974 (one of the 308)

deliawolfe@gmail.com

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VIN 2760941 should be a February 1972 car. But get the facts from BMW Archives (info.grouparchiv@bmwgroup.com), particularly to confirm the factory color. This one has lots of potential and looks plenty driveable today. Work on the details over time. The re-paint receipt says Titanium Silver -- not Polaris -- and both the engine and luggage compartment display some odd color tonalities, although the exterior looks close enough to Polaris. Either recover those Recaro front seats or restore the included original seats -- the current front seat appearance is distracting! And the M-Sport stripes are equally distracting, and entirely un-needed. I wonder if they could be peeled off without damaging the paint.

Regardless of seller's claim to no evidence of a nosepiece exchange, this one has clear evidence: the simple lap joint where the top of the radiator support sits on top of the front of the two inner fenders has been filled with body filler to "hide" the lap joint. The photo below of my Polaris '76, after its engine bay was re-painted shows the lap joint at top BUT...there's even a little body filler or seam sealer in mine now that wasn't present originally; the second photo, of a Sienabraun '76, shows an un-touched factory lap joint.

Returning to the tii that is the subject of this thread, at least the left rear shock tower on the tii has had work. So as with any 44-year-old car, get a good PPI.

Regards,

Steve

INTRODUCING....the new, vastly improved, user-friendly conserv 2.0:

I had the notion that by participating in this forum I would be passing some of my experience, as an owner of '02s for (now) 43 years, to the next generation of '02 owners. But my style of instruction, sharing my only-slightly-filtered reactions to '02s -- I called it "straight-forward" but some have called it obnoxious -- is clearly offensive to some forum members, many of whom I greatly respect and admire. So, I am today introducing conserv 2.0.

I hereby retract the above-quoted comments and replace them with the following -- see if it's not kinder and gentler:

"VIN 2760941 should be a February 1972 car. And what's not to like? Lots of shiny paint. Lots of shiny chrome. Seats four! Four shiny basketweaves mounted and, hey, isn't that an original tii steelie in the spare tire well? You bet! Pull out your checkbooks and start bidding, my friends! The sky is the limit! PPI? Why? If things don't "work out," you can always find someone who knows less than you. Vroom, vroom!"

Maybe it still needs a few refinements. Just wait for version 2.1...

Regards,

The New Steve

Edited by Conserv

1976 2002 Polaris, 2742541 (original owner)

1973 2002tii Inka, 2762757 (not-the-original owner)

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INTRODUCING....the new, vastly improved, user-friendly conserv 2.0:

I had the notion that by participating in this forum I would be passing some of my experience, as an owner of '02s for (now) 43 years, to the next generation of '02 owners. But my style of instruction by sharing my only-slightly-filtered reactions to cars -- I called it "straight-forward" but some have called it obnoxious -- is clearly offensive to some forum members, many of whom I greatly respect and admire. So, I am today introducing conserv 2.0.

I hereby retract the above-quoted comments and replace them with the following -- see if it's not kinder and gentler:

VIN 2760941 should be a February 1972 car. And what's not to like? Lots of shiny paint. Lots of shiny chrome. Seats four! Four shiny rims on the ground and, hey, isn't that an original tii steelie in the spare tire well? Pull out your check book and start bidding, my friends! The sky is the limit! PPI? Why? If things don't "work out," you can always find someone who knows less than you.

Maybe it still needs a few refinements. Just wait for version 2.1...

Regards,

The New Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

Not sure if the above is intended as a response to my post, but it was most certainly not directed at you! Your vast knowledge and experience is greatly appreciated around here, and I have learned a lot from your posts. I suppose that in my meandering and rambling post, I should have clarified that my argument was more directed towards the Bring A Trailer crowd . . . . perhaps I should post it there as well!

 

Please proceed as usual.

 

Chris

Chris A
---'73 2002tii Chamonix w/ flares, sunroof, 15x7s, LSD, Bilstein Sports w/ H&R springs, upgraded sway bars, E21 Recaros
---'86 Porsche 944 Turbo grey street/track car

---'81 Alfa Romeo GTV6 rescued from junkyard, Lemons Rally/"GT" car

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Hi Steve,

 

Not sure if the above is intended as a response to my post, but it was most certainly not directed at you! Your vast knowledge and experience is greatly appreciated around here, and I have learned a lot from your posts. I suppose that in my meandering and rambling post, I should have clarified that my argument was more directed towards the Bring A Trailer crowd . . . . perhaps I should post it there as well!

 

Please proceed as usual.

 

Chris

Thanks, Chris,

I just wanted to highlight the pitfalls of an approach that follows my mother's criteria: "If you can't say something positive, don't say anything!"

Best regards,

Steve

1976 2002 Polaris, 2742541 (original owner)

1973 2002tii Inka, 2762757 (not-the-original owner)

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