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#1507592, 1966 1600-2


dasfrogger

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I'd look into the emergency flashers switch and the headlight switch with an ohmmeter.

Andy the tail light guy says "Be Seen, and Not Hurt!"  [mailto:mobrighta@comcast.net]

Lighting Upgrades for E3, E9, E10, E12, E21, E23, E24, E28, E30, E32, E36, E39 - front & back
Tail Light upgrades keep them off your tail, out of your trunk;
Headlight film keeps your 'eyes' from being scratched out or broken.

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HEADLIGHT SWITCH-

 

Measure resistance between the switch's power / input and consumer / output, with the switch on.  It should read very close to zero ohms.  Power wire is red for parking lights. The output is grey (with various color traces). Headlight input is a fat green wire; output is a fat yellow / white wire.  With the meter's leads clamped onto the terminals, wiggle the headlight knob in the first detent (parking / tail lights) to see if the resistance value fluctuates.  It shouldn't.  Same for headlights, second switch position.

 

TURN SIGNALS-

 

Turn signal output is typically blue/red (left) and blue/black (right). The wiring is a bit more complex - power (green/white?) wire to the relay, output to the turn signal stalk, then there are two leads to the hazard switch, then to the left and right side lights.  I think that's the path. The stalk switch also grounds the relay coil to start it flashing, if I understand correctly.

 

Your flasher relay may be bad internally - burned contacts inside there will cause havoc and weak output using either the stalk or hazard button switches.  A better way to test this relay is measure the voltage at the lights, under load.  I think dim turn signals is the best indicator of a bad relay, assuming good contacts at the bulbs.

 

BRAKE LIGHTS-

 

Your brake light switch might be bad, these can be rebuilt (sort of easy) or replaced (even by a newbie); again, internal crud buildup is common.  This circuit is very simple - power is green/white to the brake pedal switch, output is green/red to the brake lights.

 

GENERAL ISSUE-

 

Another typical area you find resistance is within the lamp socket, in the pin lands where the best ground contact is made.  It can be iffy due to 'crud' buildup, or if the two layer power contact (springy center tab) is weak, and doesn't push the bulb into the socket firmly. The steel layer provides the force, while the brass layer underneath makes electrical contact. Careful here - the steel has been known to break off if bent too aggressively... (It can be fixed if broken / missing).

 

The way to test for a weak ground contact between a lamp and reflector is to light the lamp, then from inside the trunk, push on the bulb to seat the side pins into the socket while grasping the glass part from outside and gently wiggling and twisting it around.  The easiest way to test is in the dark, with eyes other than your own to verify.  Ask your helper to tell you if the light gets dimmer, brighter, or stays the same.

 

General Power wire color code:

 

Red / (trace color) is hot, sometimes fused, from the battery, so key position is irrelevant.  Be careful with plain red wires!

Violet / (color) is hot with key in 'I' or Accessory.

Green / (color) is hot with key in 'II' or Run.

Brown is always ground.  Sometimes a trace color for things like the door switch for the dome light.

The 'trace color' identifies the circuit, Germans are very logical about this.

 

Hope this helps get you started.

Edited by MoBrighta

Andy the tail light guy says "Be Seen, and Not Hurt!"  [mailto:mobrighta@comcast.net]

Lighting Upgrades for E3, E9, E10, E12, E21, E23, E24, E28, E30, E32, E36, E39 - front & back
Tail Light upgrades keep them off your tail, out of your trunk;
Headlight film keeps your 'eyes' from being scratched out or broken.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Recap on the electrical saga:

a week or so ago I went out and started testing the electrical system to do some more testing to follow up from the posts above. So far everything checked out as ok with no change. Swapped in a "new" brake light switch and got some result, but not much. Then back to nothing. Double checked resistance of the grounds with @CGerardT and everything looked ok.

 

Chris recommended double checking connection of bulbs to housing, and after pulling the bulbs, cleaning the contacts with a bit of sandpaper, we were in business. Took the car for a short drive and everything was good - no stumble at idle, nothing. Returned a few days later to bring the car home, and decided to have a friend tail me on the way back to see if anything changed. Car ran with zero issues, but once i got home my friend told me the brake lights never worked.

 

The next day I checked battery voltage at rest - 6.23v. Battery was at around 80% charge. Strangely enough, its enough to get the car started and run every other circuit, but the brake lights weren't happy. I charged the battery overnight to 100% and had my wife press the pedal and - wa la, the brake lights illuminated as they should.

 

I'm baffled. absolutely baffled. The battery was new 9/15, but has always been a source of some frustration. I've often thought that may be the culprit for several of the gremlins I've experienced - but i still don't know if its a red herring and there's something else afoot. But i decided that it was time to bite the bullet and buy the 6v optima i should have bought last year.

 

Look at this adorable goofy little battery:

07BF2C4E-30D7-4D62-A7E7-E9FECFE8964F_zps

 

The battery is about an inch longer and half as wide as stock. Look at all the room for activities in that battery tray.

 

77E341C4-208F-41BF-AF7A-12CB7CD93C78_zps

 

After playing with a few mounting locations it seems to be happiest closest to the fender. It will sit at a slight angle due to being longer than the box, but this actually makes it a little less wobbly than sitting on top of the box lip. Because the battery is so thin, the stock battery hold down and other commercially available options will not adequately secure the battery in place. I've never really fabricated anything before, but I figured this should be a relativity simple first project. Plus, after watching so many other FAQ'ers do really cool stuff with metal, and lots and lots of project binky, I figured I'd have a decent shot.

 

After a trip to lowes for some generic battery hold down bolts and some 22ga (6x18 iirc) metal sheet, it was time to bust out the cardboard.

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I had a rough idea of how i wanted it to look and knew I wouldn't have a lot of clearance on the fender side. I also knew i needed to be really careful not to have sharp metal hanging out by the wiring harness, so i took some reference measurements for later:

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4687A975-EAFC-4587-973A-43C6941AD22A_zps

From there, back to the bench to do some initial folding, then back to the car to see how things looked.
CCA17815-2011-4890-BA68-7CD9283747D0_zps

C73AEEDE-32DC-4CF1-B25D-259F0AF62BBE_zps

7E117E98-CF25-4370-86BB-A2531E8DABB2_zps


I decided to have the brace run down the motor side of the battery and flatten out to the base of the extra tray for two reasons - 1) I thought utilizing the hole in the middle of the battery tray to bolt the brace to the tray would be a bit more sturdy than using a tall skinny j bolt 2) would be easier and cleaner to bend that way instead of bending and cutting off several inches to look like the fender side of the brace.

 

So, with the template set & some really good advice from experienced RGB'ers, I transferred the pattern to my steel sheet. Before folding I opted to take off two inches, making the sheet 4" wide. The full 6 inch sheet fit well, but i was concerned that the extra width may inadvertently come in contact with one of the battery posts. My brand new dremel made quick work of the the cut cleaned up the sharp edges really well with a sanding drum. 

60C3CD9D-55B7-4256-9064-6803667ED1FF_zps

A bonus of cutting two inches off the sheet was that I had a very malleable test scrap that i could use to make sure i was going to make the bends properly before actually doing it on the sheet. 

I clamped a piece of angle to my workbench and commenced with the bending, going from the engine side of the mount toward the fender side.

65ADBA29-6DF5-4378-A703-2712953EDA9B_zps

1BA97075-4C87-4600-88E9-BFB74130E770_zps

A few more bends and I was just about in business:

9E851A8F-0227-43D8-B00E-6DBB6F3BB072_zps

E8B84610-5990-41A8-B082-7D27D6427058_zps

57D5AD9C-60BC-40EA-AA0A-FD367A912310_zps

 

As you can see, the fender side of the mount is pretty boogered. I tried to cut a few inches off to make the clearance that i needed between the fender and the battery. As i as cutting, the brand new dremel bit the dust. Knowing i would probably have to make this again anyway, I ripped and twisted the partially cut metal with pliers resulting in a pretty gross finish. i then bent the corners of the edges under to simulate removing that metal to see if i could get it all to fit.

 

The good news it that it will work. The better news is after staring at the mangled metal, i have a better solution for next time. Instead of cutting ~3 inches off the fender side to make clearance, i'll make two cuts and bend the middle part (where the bolt hole will go) back up and trim and round off the excess which will allow me to fold the extra on the sides down to make more contact with the sides of the battery. I think that this should work well, especially if i drill the hole prior to the cutting and bending. Hopefully later tonight I'll have time to return the bad dremel and pick up a new one and make the bracket again.

 

One of the coolest parts of this project was using my great grandfather's tools. He was a printer and engraver with a 6th grade education but had a large mechanical aptitude. He loved VW Karmann Ghia's and home built VW engined airplanes with not a lot more than over the counter tools. After my grandmother died, I inherited his tools. It was pretty cool to work some metal with the same hammers he used for metal work on his airplanes.

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_4ed3_zps9p3yp9p9.

 

 

In other news, during this process (the past few days) I've been checking if the brake lights work nightly. The suspect battery has been fine and the brake lights are working as they should. Again, baffling. I'm going to have to recheck every wire to see if i missed anything after i get the new battery installed.

 

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Jake- really cool about your great grandfather! Another VW lover is always ?. Have you replaced those battery cables, cleaned the mounting points for the regulator and inspected the generator brushes?  The 6 volt systems don't leave much wiggle room in the electrics department. Once I saved enough money mowing lawns, I converted my 66 Beetle to 12 volts (but kept the 6V starter for quicker starts. 

Jim Gerock

 

Riviera 69 2002 built 5/30/69 "Oscar"

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Jim:

 

That's a really good point. It's really amazing what a difference a tenth of a volt makes.

 

 I've cleaned up the ground cable a little bit, both connection points, and a little on the cable itself, but it's likely 50 years old otherwise. haven't done much of anything to the positive.

 

As for the generator/regulator - i had to replace the 'original' parts when i bought the car as one of the mounting tabs for the generator was broken off and created problems with belt tension. The regulator and generator were from a 67 parts car that seems to only have been on the road until the 70's. connections were cleaned up with a brush when installed. However, It's probably a good idea to go thru and clean/test again. I think the gen is producing ~7 volts at charging, but need to test again as it's been awile.

 

I found a post about opening up a generator that included part numbers for the bushing and some good photos (https://1966bmw1800.wordpress.com/2010/06/03/busted-generator-bushing/). I'm hoping i don't need to break into my generator, but if I do, at least i have a spare that i can learn about first before i open up the "good" one

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Jim - Thanks for the link! A lot of the 6v information I've been looking at has been old tractors and farm implements, i never thought about researching 6v VW's - even though I talk about them often enough.

Well, battery hold down version 2.0 turned out much better. As I was preparing to bend and cut the second brace I realized i was missing two crucial ingredients for success : A tasty porter and Tito Puente.

 

C7A95234-DD92-4B9C-AB4F-7BC4877A6EE4_zps

 

The tasty beer and instant party really did the trick and things went 100% better. So, to recap:

Assemble Voltron Materials:
2B98073F-9EEC-42D2-9B9C-AA8B3E84146A_zps

 

Draw Lines:
4E481386-9BD2-4F44-B99B-7DEBAADF25CA_zps

 

Make sparks like every Auto-reality-tv-show-discoverychannel-thing:
39C7CCE1-54E3-4623-96DA-D6118E9CECF4_zps

I mean really, if you're not makin sparks when fixing a car, you're clearly doing it wrong. Yeeeee-Haw

 

Bask in the glow of the destruction you just caused, then dremel sand the rough edge of the big piece to avoid rough edges and metal splinters. Ouch.
1AE36369-8230-4245-A8BC-5E7B00D3A451_zps

 

Transfer pattern from cardboard to metal with quality hillbilly estimates precision accuracy 

CC64D717-E398-4199-90B9-37D51C912284_zps

 

Then Bend, check, install in car and figure out where to cut the fender side mount. Based on how it looked in the car, i needed to take off all but 1" in the middle, but i marked1" and 1.5" as i didn't want to take too much off to start with. Spoiler alert: i was right the first time. A blind Squirrel finds a nut every now and then...
6186899D-8743-401A-B29B-4AC23AF50DCF_zps

Cut Cut Cut
CEC4667C-2B12-40F8-B9B8-72B40F75A156_zps

Bend the tab up and prepare to drill:
245731E9-9388-4F14-93D8-78884D329DB7_zps

EE3DA239-7832-4D31-8B38-34DCBCCED410_zps


Pow!, After this photo i zipped off the area under the black line and rounded the corners a little bit.
B242E4A1-7026-4A9A-BBA7-381C11591E14_zps

 

And installed:
F1AD7AF5-824E-45E2-AFA1-65F9115BFB95_zps

 

I was super concerned (and still am) about the tab ripping into that wiring harness. As luck would have it, they are at the exact same height. I plan to coat the bracket in truck bed liner (to make it less conductive) and i will soften those edges with a dremel and sanding drum prior. I'll probably wrap that particular section of harness in tesa tape too to give it an extra layer of protection just in case.

The box has a little bit of flex/play in it, but i think it will be more than sufficient to hold the battery. It doesn't move at idle, and this car won't be subjected to back road driving.

 

So far I really like the optima. I'm really paranoid that the old battery was not the only issue though and will still be checking everything else to confirm. I forgot to check battery voltage with car off, but when i had it running the battery showed just over 6v - which doesn't seem right. After i turned the car off I saw 6.23v, which is a little more than 80%. Yikes. Brake lights work, but still are delayed by a little less than a second. I'll take it.


I was poking around with a multimeter while the car was running, and at one point saw over 7v from the generator. This is good, but i couldn't duplicate it - later readings showed about 4 - 4.5v. Yikes.

I'm going to charge the battery up and test everything again. First i need to do some research and figure out what readings i should get based on the various places I need to probe and compare. Here's to hoping the generator doesn't need rebuilding.

 

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Today was one of those "more questions than answers" kind of days. But it was a good day because I got to drive this car. I know I've said it before, but It is unlike any 02 I've been in; while it's not a back road vandal like many of its kind, it is still an an intoxicating experience to drive. While we were out for a drive thru town it constantly turned heads of pedestrians, received thumbs up extending from other car's windows, and pulled a few people in with it's gravity while at the gas station. It is incredible how much attention this car gets - it's continually strange to me as Frogger doesn't get much at all. While i still have plenty to investigate, i feel comfortable enough to start daily driving whippersnapper again, and that's exciting.

 

So the diagnostic update:

 

Came out to a fully charged battery (6.35v). When I attached the negative terminal the reading dropped to 6.18v. A few minutes later i showed arrived at my destination and the reading (with the neg cable attached and not) was 6.41v.

 

Later in the day I polarized the generator via the voltage regulator (jumper wire from hot side of regulator to the field terminal of regulator). Read 6.34v at rest. With the car running at low idle it showed about 6.25v. Ran for a few minutes and shut down - After shut down battery was 6.24ish. Started car again and ran for several minutes - bumped idle up via choke cable and back down. As I bumped the idle up (via the choke cable) the reading increased 6.6v, 6.8v, 7v, 7.4 v at highest idle (choke closed). Shut car off after a few minutes floated back down around 6.4 ish volts.

 

Drove the car 20-30 miles afterward - zero problems. Stopped to check things out - at medium idle i showed about 6.5v. Turned the headlights on and showed 6.32v. After several more miles of driving I returned home and found a resting voltage of 6.43v
 

All the while everything seemed to work. Zero problems experienced. Brake lights worked consistently.


So what does this mean? I dunno. Its my understanding that taking a reading at the battery isn't always the best diagnostic. I am interested in why voltage is so significantly different based on RPM. Is this a function of how generators operate, or indicative of a failing generator, voltage regulator, or bad wiring between the two?

 

Next steps are:

start car, run at ~1300 RPM, remove battery cables and see if car continues to run off generator power.

Check output of generator with nothing attached (remove wiring to voltage regulator)

Replace original wiring with new wire & connectors. What is in place now has seen better days.

Test resistance of old wiring to see if anything was wonky.

Replace Positive and negative battery cables. I want to eliminate these as variables + i need a slightly longer positive cable to position ideally on new battery.

 

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I think you have it practically sussed.

 

There were no DVM's back in the day ;-)

 

I think if you continue to show >6V (and less than something alarming), you are on your way to calling it good.

 

Cheers,

Ray

Stop reading this! Don't you have anything better to do?? :P
Two running things. Two broken things.

 

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Good sleuthing.  Seems like you're getting there.  I think replacing those bigger cables sounds like a good next step.  

 

Re the car getting attention - there is something about it.  It looks really old in an interesting way.  Almost "BMW Primitive".  

 

Good seeing you on Sat.

 

Scott

02ing since '87

'72 tii Euro  //  '21 330i x //  '14 BMW X5  //  '12 VW Jetta GLI

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10 hours ago, ray_ said:

I think if you continue to show >6V (and less than something alarming), you are on your way to calling it good

 

I think you're right. The "ignorance is bliss" part of me was screaming pretty hard yesterday that it was good enough, quit poking around trying to cause problems. I think I'm goint to at minimum get the wiring changed out, and if i can answer the other quesitons, great, if not then I'll keep an eye on it. I hate to let this one go though - If the charging had anything to do with the stalling issue i want that fixed. It was a horrible experience.

 

 

2 hours ago, saaron said:

Re the car getting attention - there is something about it.  It looks really old in an interesting way.  Almost "BMW Primitive".  

Maybe thats it, i think you're on to something. I like "BMW Primitive" - good term. I feel a bit like a tool mentioning it here - kind of like wearing a band's t-shirt to their show. "we get it, 02's are cool, people like seeing them". But its just so profoundly different of an experience than any other I've driven. OK, shutting up now.

Drove the car agian this morning. Did great. Starts way quicker with this Optima. I've been modulating throttle with choke cable. Pulling out a little bit to raise idle when coming to a stop or at a stop, opening fully when crusing. Not sure how i feel about this method. May just bump idle a fraction of a turn on the carb and call it a day. Need to find something that can stand in as a tacho to really set and know where the idle speed is. Maybe a fancy timing light or something.

 

 

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Not really a good idea to run the car with disconnected battery cables. It could damage the generator. I used to do this (pull the negative from the battery) on my first VW to check the charging but was quickly told not to do so. 

 

I believe polarization should be done on a new or rebuilt generator---I have never done this. Shame on me.

Edited by jgerock

Jim Gerock

 

Riviera 69 2002 built 5/30/69 "Oscar"

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On 4/26/2017 at 6:55 PM, jgerock said:

Not really a good idea to run the car with disconnected battery cables.

 

I'm pretty sure I remember in Rob's book he says "never do that".  

 

Scott

02ing since '87

'72 tii Euro  //  '21 330i x //  '14 BMW X5  //  '12 VW Jetta GLI

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