Sign in to follow this  
Guest Anonymous

a couple observations...

11 posts in this topic Last Reply

Recommended Posts

Guest Anonymous

standard.jpg

i have been unable to read the board for a few days and all hell seems to have broken loose on a couple subjects. what I have learned from reading through all the posts is 1. if you are going to sell a 2002, especially a rare 2002 that will command big bucks, take a couple hundred digital pictures of every part of the car from every angle possible in varying light conditions and provide a link to the gallery so that scutineers can study them and potential buyers can get to know your car very well before they have to write for explanations, etc. With today's cheap digital cameras and picture hosting sittes that cost next to nothing, I think that would have avoided a lot of controversy. ( i provide over 200 pictures of my cars to my appraiser for his use and for my protection in case of wreck or theft).[ After the "alpina ti" thing- I felt "twitchy" about high- end rare 02s, add the "Normandy Turbo" in the mud, and I was very "unnerved".] 2. As to the "suspension : stock or modified" debate: that is very subjective stuff and can only be truly evaluated on a track with controlled testing: same pro driver over same track under same conditions drives different cars and renders an opinion. God knows, race teams spend millions on shock and spring development and log thousands of test hours to get it "right". I hope all parties to that debate understand that , as a rule, a more aggressive spring and shock is going to allow a 2002 to hold a tighter line, at higher speed, with less movement; but rebound amounts may be insufficient for some terrain changes and that is where a stock suspension could be "better". Also, historically, the stock 2002 was rated by professional testers, at the time, to be a superior handling car and that holds true to this day. You can do things in a stock 02 within the envelope that exceed many other cars' envelopes. It is just a great set up from the get-go, but it can be improved upon to attain better handling at higher speeds. However: this is is all very subjectivein analysis and subject to different results.I think that is why people are always posting for comments about different component combinations. I hope all involved get back to posting about 02s : everyones' comments are useful to someone at some stage of their 02 growth. We need our regulars to keep sharing their years of experience with 02s so that we with a few years dont have to make costly mistakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous

but that feeling of being scrutinized gives me pause. Guess I just don't feel like getting beat up about my car, my parts, or any advice I offer etc. I try to post as often as I can to help people with questions about 1600s. They're a little different in some ways that many don't realize at the surface. So, I try to help when I can. Heck, if people cut up that silver turbo, which I thought was pretty nice (albeit spendy), I'd hate to read the critique of my car!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous

Yes, the 02 was praised when new for its handling. The contemporary reports I read said that it could out handle many self-proclaimed 'sports cars' in a handling duel, which was a lofty claim for a sedan. The 'sports cars' category at the time included the MG, Triumph, Fiat, Alfa, Jaguar, rear engined Porsche, Datsun roadster, and so on. 'Exotics' would include the Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, Cobra (could have been just a sports car) etc. In addition, many people thought that the pony cars, like the Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, Challenger, were 'performance cars', especially because the Trans-Am racing series put modified versions onto road race courses along side smaller-bore sporting sedans.

Anyways, my point is that the stock 02 fared well against the likes of the MG, Triumph, Porsche 912, Alfa, Fiat, and so forth, as well as the bigger Mustang-type ponycars. I don't think anyone ever thought it was serious competition for a Lotus or Ferrari.

That being said, where do these cars rate today? The magazine 'Grassroots Motorsports' ran a test article a few months back, where they pitted the Jag E-type, a Porsche 356 and a new Honda Odyssey minivan (!) against each other on an autocross course.

Guess which walked away with the prize? You guessed it, the Honday Odyssey on basic street tires was as fast as the purebred sports cars through the cones, and was much easier to drive. With decent tires on it in a second test, the Odyssey stomped on the sports cars.

The point is, technology has come a long, long ways since the mid-60s, when the 2002 was designed. If you like the 'vintage feel', then a stock or period-modified 02 is right up your alley. If you're trying to remain competitive with modern cars sporting multi-link suspensions and fat, sticky tires, you'll need to do some work. This is doubly true if you increase the power output of your 02's motor. You ever notice how the vintage race photos show a lot of cars, and 2002s are no exception to this, with one wheel lifted off the ground in a corner? To me and many others, this seems really nifty; but to competitive racers, its a sign of an outdated setup and a center of gravity that's way too high.

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous

I find that this board is more open minded than most. I think if I ever brought my 02 to a BMWCCA event, they'd put it out on the street.

I don't have a lot of $$ to blow on my car, and even if I did I don't think I'd go for the show-car look. I'm applying basic rat-rod garage techniques, and I'm doing most everything myself. My goal is to have a simple, sturdy, safe, lightweight car that will be fun on the street and adequate for track lessons.

I'm painting it right now with an industrial paint that won't be too shiny, but should be plenty tough. It only cost $45 per gallon, is non-toxic, and won't blow up the garage. The main purpose of paint, to me, is to keep oxygen, and hence rust, away from the steel. The experience of painting my car is more valuable to me than the final results. Someday I might build a paint booth and buy some real safety equipment, and then I might try my hand at super-toxic polyisocyanate based 3-part auto paint.

Interior? No headliner, no carpet, probably no back seat. Might have door panels, might not. Seats will probably be Summit racing buckets, though I might pick up some Recaros if the price is right. No radio, no A/C, no heater. No window washer, either. Heck, I'm even thinking of leaving out all the glass except for the windshield, at least at first. This is going to be a fair weather car, and without the glass the 02 is a bit like a convertible. Ultimately I wouldn't mind doing quick-remove plexi side windows, maybe even a quick-remove rear backlight.

I'm going to try to do without power brakes, but I just love vintage sidedrafts and the 2000TI air cleaner setup. The front brakes are 320i solids, not venteds. It will have a 3.9-ish LSD from the 320is, and I'm thinking about an unconventional rear disc brake setup. The front sway bar is a modified 19mm Bavaria bar, the bushings are stock rubber. I will cut the springs and see how that goes, and later maybe go to a purpose built sport spring.

My point is, many 2002 enthusiasts, or car nuts in general, would absolutely _cringe_ at my car, but it's the product of my sweat and labor, and it's what I want out of a car. You can't buy one like it in a showroom.

Some people need to lighten up a bit regarding the dogmatic tendencies of the 2002 cult. This is supposed to be fun, right?

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous

I've gotton one wheel off the ground and I'm sure it looked cool

and the crowd loved it... I knew I was going slower... I've gone

and modified my setup for a very agressive street setup and

sometimes it's to agressive..... but then again.. sometimes I just

don't brake for corners and just wiz right on through them to

make my passanger squeal like a little girl :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous

I was really thinking about doing a engine assembly faq that could

be used from changing heads and valve seals to rebuilding the

whole thing.. complete dissassembly and reassembly of the

engine but I feel that people would be like (you can't do that that

way... that's no good if you do it this way.. blah blah blah and

pick it apart... ) there's like 20 ways to do something so I just give

advice and help where I can....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous

...that we all seem to more or less agree on this topic. I've been saying all along, and here it is again-----The stock 2002 suspension is fine for %90 of the people driving 2002s under almost every driving condition. The only reason to change it is for ultra high performance, auto-x, or racing. Why I have to keep defending my position on this one mystifies me. I have tweaked my current car and a bunch of others. I know what the changes do. All I was trying to do on the original post was save someone a sore back from over building a suspension needlessly. I see that all the time. It's like having a SUV in the city to me. Wrong vehicle for the environment. I have received numerous e-mails confirming my thoughts as re: that Arkansas drive. Anyone with a stock, or close to stock suspension, had problems keeping up with the non-stock cars at higher speeds. This is not a mystery to me. Nor should it be to anyone else. If you drive under those circumstances often-upgrade. If not-don't. Also, it's an observation-not even an opinion. So, when I say "not true", it's not meant to offend, but correct. Maybe that's offensive in a realm where everyone "knows it all". I am, however, willing to take that chance because the people that know me, know I'm a laid back guy that wants to help when I can. I don't speak on subjects I'm not familiar with, and I try to advise on subjects I am. It should be noted that my post was totally on topic also, until I felt the need to defend myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous

It seems that selling "rare" or high end 2002s is like selling high end motorcycles or anything else; people are much more careful and picky about things. I would guess this is to be expected.

The fake Alpina 2002 is more of an isolated case; the same guy was deliberately trying to pass it off as an authentic 2002ti a couple of years ago. I'm not at all an expert on Alpinas, but there were a LOT of claims made on that auction that just didn't jive. I don't like to pick apart cars just to be mean, but this was again a blatant case of the seller trying to mislead some enthusiast with more money than knowledge. I'd bet there isn't anybody here who would have liked to pay $14k for that car then find hear from the original builder that the car wasn't what it was advertised as.

The 2002 Turbo is a very nice car in many, many ways. It's a shame to see someone criticize an obvious flaw and probably be incorrect with their quick assumption of further damage without further inspection. This kind of inaccurate criticism really turns off many people from using boards like these and leads to further inaccuracies.

If a car's rare/unique, it'll be pretty obvious. From the pics, Jay's tii is pretty damn nice and has some really desireable Alpina stuff on it. This, and it's excellent condition would make it worth a hell of a lot more, without the need to lie or exaggerate the facts.

Suspension is indeed a very difficult subject. To each their own!

vince

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous

Bavarias at the local Pick & Pull, so I can't test fit one....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this