electrical and ignition 123 Ignition Distributor....any Info Or Personal Experience?

[kaptanoglu]

For a modified engine, I'd go with the 123 again.  The crank-fired systems are more accurate....but with corresponding expense, of course.

 

That's me.  Sputter has a lightly modified motor (oversize pistons, higher compression, 284 cam, doctored KFish), and the ability to better tune ignition will be great.  The other benefit of this is the "almost stock" look.  While that isn't a priority for everyone, the resto took a course where that has some value to me.

 

Thanks again,

 

J

[kaptanoglu]

Okay - Now we are down to the really stupid questions....

 

I am looking at the wiring diagram for the neg earth set up.  If I am reading it correctly, it goes:

Yellow - to a 12v switched source (to switch between the two curves)

Blue - to a keyed circuit (only on if the ignition is on)

Red - to an "always hot" circuit

Black - ground

 

Is this correct?

 

Thanks again.  If it isn't obvious, I am pretty comfortable with things mechanical, but have always steered clear of electrical.

 

J

Edited March 17, 2015 by kaptanoglu

[eurotrash]

I don't think that anyone has embraced the 123, and published data like we have..  I even started an on line forum for it.. because they dumped theirs.  But it just gets spammered because its a free forum platform.

 

Anyway, I figured out how graph my shizz like tombonetoo..    It ran very well on the way in to work today.  No complaints, but after seeing the data like this, I'm going out to the car to make some changes here at lunch. 

 

 

[zinz]

Believe me... if I can figure out the wiring, so can you (okay... Ray helped me...)  I put a dirt-simple on-off switch with a hot lead (shared with red wire) to one pole and the yellow wire to the other pole. I did it quick and dirty under the hood to get her going. Once I settle into a curve that works for me, I may remove it entirely. 

 

The switch isn't necessary if you are using the laptop.  Plug the laptop in via a USB cable and the control panel will allow you to switch between curves on the fly.  

 

I'm also glad to see we are finally sharing some of the 123 data...it really isn't hard to tune, but for any NOOB, you have to start somewhere.  I certainly want to try Tom's idle-spike trick...which will be easy-peasy....build that curve into #2 and switch.  Run it.  Does it work better? Save it.  Doesn't help? Switch back to #1.  All in minutes...

 

Ed Z

[zinz]

repost...

Edited March 17, 2015 by zinz

[kaptanoglu]

Fantastic.

 

Thanks again.

 

J

[Laurent1602]

Great topic! As Zinz mentioned, I have an 123 as well. Why not share my experience with it?

I bought mine in august, and installed the 123 with a curve from another 02 enthousiast (posted by Zinz a couple of posts earlier). Never changed much about it as the car was going great with this setting and no static advance. Dyno resulted in 90hp with a stock 1600 motor with dual Solex carbs, everything ajusted as it should. Not bad at all so I wasn't triggered to change much.

 

When Zinz asked about my experiences with the 123 we started brainstorming about things to try out, just by talking about the settings we had, and things we might have to try out. Since then my car has improved quite a bit. To keep the long story short, static advance is now at 10°, but I retarded the curve by 2-3° above 4000rpm as the car was running hot when I kept driving at approx 5000-5500rpm in fourth gear (did that on a safe, wide, straight, empty road for testing purposes only, of course).

 

I tested the curve and static advance settings (and a lot of others as well) with the tuning tool included in the 123 software. I always used the same piece of road and did multiple measurements in both directions with the same settings, and then took the average (pretty scientific right?). I haven't put the car on the dyno since then, but I really feel the car is driving at its best now, compared with before the 123, well, it's a whole different car actually! If there's anyone doubting about an 123 out there, just order the thing right now!

[eurotrash]

Having fun with this 3D thing... 

 

The sun came out, so I had to drive up to the top of the parking garage and get some D..  made some changes.  More total advance, and feathered the vac, advance.  Feels real good in the downtown stop and go traffic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stevenola]

Yellow goes to a switch then to +12v

Blue goes to Ground

Red goes to +12v switched to coil (I hook mine up to the input side of the the ballast resistor)

Black goes to negative side of coil

 

You can manually advance and retard on the fly with the keyboard, designing and saving a new curve requires engine off.

Not sure if the yellow switch will change curves on the fly or requires engine off (I only use 1 curve).

 

Bottom line, what takes weeks and $$$ for a distributor specialist to do can be done in less than a minute, and changed right away to something else if you don't like the result.

 

They also recommend using as few data points as possible, not sure why.  Probably less computing power needed.

 

 

 

Okay - Now we are down to the really stupid questions....

 

I am looking at the wiring diagram for the neg earth set up.  If I am reading it correctly, it goes:

Yellow - to a 12v switched source (to switch between the two curves)

Blue - to a keyed circuit (only on if the ignition is on)

Red - to an "always hot" circuit

Black - ground

 

Is this correct?

 

Thanks again.  If it isn't obvious, I am pretty comfortable with things mechanical, but have always steered clear of electrical.

 

J

Edited March 17, 2015 by Stevenola

[eurotrash]

Here's a present for you gents!    Now you can have your own fancy 3d graph! The preview sucks.. download it and open.  Its an excel file. 

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2G6354NBO8URGYwbGhiVXZTZGM/view?usp=sharing

 

EDIT:  There is some formatting that didn't get popped into all the columns, I'll fix it at work tomorrow..

and this doesn't interpret well in Numbers on a Mac..  sorry.

Edited March 17, 2015 by eurotrash

['76mintgrün'02]

This thread is AWESOME.

I thought I was getting fancy when I used a colored pencil to plot the curve... on a piece of PAPER.

 

 

 

[zinz]

hahaha... all I can think of is that you should have made into a pop-up book for the 3rd axis....

[kaptanoglu]

Yellow goes to a switch then to +12v

Blue goes to Ground

Red goes to +12v switched to coil (I hook mine up to the input side of the the ballast resistor)

Black goes to negative side of coil

 

Now THAT makes sense.  The coil in their drawing also (for some reason) looked like a battery to me.

 

Thanks,

J

[zinz]

Ok... while grinding away at this, today.  There is something that has always baffled me about DCOEs ( and some Solexes/Mikunis/Dellortos)...they have no vacuum ports??  That's just dumb to me... Without vacuum ports, you are restricted to the mechanical advance only.  Not to mention how super easy and precise it is to synch multiple carbs with a CarbTune manometer...

 

Maybe more people do this, I just don't know... but couldn't you drill/tap a phenolic spacer and insert a vacuum port?  We've seen where EuroTrash drilled and tapped his carbs, but folks might be uneasy about screwing up their carbs...

 

A spacer 3/8"-1/2" should provide enough meat get the job done..  Something like this?

 

Would this work?

 

Ed Z

[eurotrash]

Dellortos have the vacuum ports naturally.  FYI. so do late italian Weber DCOM.   Which were copies of the Dells.. made for production Peugeot and other.  Steve, from page one, has DCOM.

 

Using the spacers won't render the vacuum behind the butterflies, which is what you want for advance at idle.  You'll get high vacuum at open throttle, but not at idle.

 

 

Edit:  I was thinking from the wrong side of the butterfly..  thanks Steve.

Edited March 17, 2015 by eurotrash