We need to start a BMW 2002 Fair Market Value database

[Guest Anonymous]

consisting of certain info that will help any of us who need to establish a verifiable value for insurance purposes. The info should contain a photo of the car (blocking out license plate), city or region, a description of items that indicate value above a completely stock car, purchase price and selling price of the car, and some sort of contact info such as an email for an insurance company to verify the selling price. Since getting dealer sales prices is important too, if you've seen a dealer with an '02 that you've checked-out, and find that it's sold get the selling price out of them and note the dealer. In a year or two there will be a sizable database that will be hard for an insurance company to dispute the value of regarding 2002s. The same could be done for E9s or other vintage BMWs. The insurance companies have their database to access, so we'd have one that we know is realistic.

Any thoughts on the subject?

[Guest Anonymous]

Pricing a car for purchase can be based on so many variables. I bought my 1969 from Santa Rosa a few years ago. The paint had faded but the car was certified being 100% rust free. Fresh motor, but bad brakes andbad radiator. Came with trunk full of spare parts.

I paid $900 for it, while another well known independent shp specializing in 2002 was selling cars in much worst condition at twice the price. Which had the proper price? I don't know. It all comes to the motivations of the buyer and the seller.

Because for insurance, all cars are the same, I understand the need of a database for a price structure.

But there is one thing I hate most, it is when one seller says this is the market price!!! Market price doesn't exists. It is always about how much interest or motivation this car has raised. The marketr value is only the value that people are ready to spend on a given occasion and location. Aren't cars worst less in the Fall than in the Spring?

[Guest Anonymous]

of a particular car -- that is the real Fair Market Value of a car. That's why trying to prove the value from the asking price has no meaning. You have to be able to document the real selling prices of cars to do that. I bought my 1974 '02 in this pic for 4000 in 1990 from a close friend. I let him advertise it in the L.A. Times and as long as I met his best offer it was mine. Since then I've improved the car with the Recaros, wheels/tires, Konis and various work I've done. I consider the FMV to be about 6k now as I'm pretty sure this original condition (including paint) could bring that if I were to sell it (like sure I would). I'm sure there are ones in my condition that have sold for that or more. I'll put my car in the database as reference although it might make some other people's values seem too high.

[Guest Anonymous]

15 years ago, there was that very nice 1982 320i that was sitting at my independent BMW shop, cllecting dust for a few months. The injection system had problem with rust. It was repaired, but the owner kept on using cheap fuel infected by water. So, the problem came back and the owner got fed up and bought another car...

I called the owner and offered him $1200 for the car (the amount recommanded by my friend at the shop). The owner laughed at me, asked for $7k and hung up.

One month later, the car is still sitting there. I call the owner and explain to him what I offered him $1200. He doesn'T want to hear a thing.

One more month passes by. I call the owner. Offered him $1400 in good will. He hangs up.

2 days later, I call him and he accepts my offer.

From $7k to $1400. So, if there is one thing to learn is that asking value means nothing. The real value of the car is the value at which it traded.

Same for my Hartge e30 323i. The owner in Florida described the car, and asked $6k for the car. I flew over to Florida, checked the car. There were several flaws even if the car was in overall very good condition. I offered $1500 less than he wanted and let him know that the decision to sell as all his and that I had no problem flying back to Montreal (with no car obviously). I then asked him how many offers he had received. I was the only one in two months. He accepted my offer. It was a win-win situation. I paid for the real value of the car. Nobody got screwed.

[Guest Anonymous]

Previous comments indicate that there can be huge differences in car values...either perceived by their owners, or by dealers bound by profit margins necessary to run their businesses.

The actual selling price, as you mention, is the only real benchmark.

When buying an '02 there are extremely good deals to be had and some not so good. The idea is to have a data base that helps to "level the field."

Also, if your '02 is a daily driver, and you are in an accident, then how do you determine if the car is a total loss?

The more I think about the data base, the better I like it.

Go for it, Jay.

Delia Wolfe

'73tii

Inka (aka "Orange Julius")

#2762756

[Guest Anonymous]

HOw about being part of the FAQ?, a new entry on top menu. We also need standard pictures for everybody to comply (if possible) so that way comparissons could be made

[Guest Anonymous]

component parts and upgrades costs value too. I know these will vary depending on condition, NOS, NLA,Ebay sales amounts, etc. But,if we can try to establish a reasonable amount for say a "5 speed conversion": that would assist a 2002 owner trying to receive fair compensation for a catastrophic loss. Most all components of a 2002/2002tii/202 Turbo can be culled from catalogues and dealer price lists. They do not reflect labor costs for installation( i dont know if an owner is ever compensated for that component), but say the bits and pieces of the 5 speed conversion cost ( arbitrary figure) $700 with a used Getrag 245. That does not reflect the machining of the shaft, and the welding of the platform, tunnel widening, etc. A 5- speed conversion usually goes for around $1500 from what I have seen over the years. Maybe more. If the data base had that number next to 5 speed conversion, then the owner can benefit from the collective agreement on the value of a common upgrade that would be totally lost on an adjuster. That is just 1 example: There are probably a dozen more "common" upgrades that many 02 owners do/have done that have a value that exceeds the parts cost alone. Most important: We could also use a nationally recognized appraiser who could perform "virtual appraisals" using detailed digital pictures of every nook and cranny of a car, and a substantiated provenance of the car( to the best extent possible) and copies of sales receipts/work receipts. An appraisal is formidable evidence of value in the battle against the adjuster working from a limited and uninformed viewpoint. I will help with this project as much as i can- It will definately help me and a lot of other 02 owners who have done/had done a lot of work to their cars. Thanks for the idea .

[Guest Anonymous]

I have never been involved in a total loss myself,

but owning a bodyshop I am exposed indirectly to

one a week for the last 10 years.

It is funny, but owners tend to accept the fact that

the vehicle is a total loss if it is their own fault.

Have someone run into them and now the car

becomes irreplaceable! This brings two different

scenarios in California:

1)You total your 2002 and have full coverage.

The claim is handled by your own insurance

company according to the terms of your policy

which will dictate Actual Cash Value. This is the

agreement between the two parties. Pretty straight

forward.

2)You are having a good day when an idiot totals

your 02. (let's assume that you only have liability).

Since you don't have a previous agreement with

the idiot's insurance, it becomes a civil matter - a

negotiation, which in most instances can be

settled outside the courts. Basically you are

entitled,as a minimum, to restitution of your

economic loss (emotionally I would be destroyed if

I loose Bacchus)

So how do you determine economic loss? It is a

lot easier to do that on a 99 Neon than it is on a

2002. Note that ACV is out the window now, since

you didn't agree to that, and also you weren't really

planning to sell your precious 02 at that particular

moment.

I have never seen two identical 02's, or similar for

that matter. They have a soul, they all drive

diffently, have unique set ups and some have NLA

parts in them. How can you prove your "economic

loss"? Looking at comparable sales is a start - but

there isn't just enough information to compare your

car with others. The only way around this problem

is by hiring a professional auto appraiser who is

certified to assess the value of your car. These

people deal with these issues unique to vintage

cars. Can you do it after the fact: yes.

There is even a third scenario, where things get

really complicated and I won't even go there: You

have full coverage and get hit by someone else -

can someone care to tackle that one?.

Note that here are two other options before your

car gets wrecked: stated value and agreed value

policy. I don't know the difference on that either.

Please, someone correct me if I am wrong, I don't

claim to be an expert on these things, I am just an

observer. TIA

Michael

72 tii

Note: Insurance companies have guidelines on

how to settle claims with a third party - they have a

fiduciary obligation to save money - it is not an evil

thing - it is actually good. The need to stay in

business too.

[Guest Anonymous]

There are two facets of a "fair market" databast that should be fairly straightforward to put together:

1. A repair/upgrade/modification section with two price/cost values attached: parts only and complete job cost if farmed out to a 2002 shop (as per Jay's post, a 5 speed conversion @ about $750 parts/DIY labor & $1500 done by a shop)

2. A running database of '02 sales (sort of like the "comp's" that realtors and appraisers use in home sales - comparing your house to similar houses that sold in the same area). It would require that people buying and/or selling '02's submit a consistant set of photos, a detailed description of the car (warts and all) and the purchase/sale price. Ideally, the database should be sortable so someone needing info could input put the appropriate critera and get back a list of closely matching vehicles, maybe ranked as to the percentage match to the criteria given.

In addition to helping deal with insurance issues, the info should also help give those with somewhat less experience buying and selling '02s a better idea of what to pay for a specific car, and provide bargaining ammunition for dealing with sellers who've set their prices on the high side....

[Guest Anonymous]

I think it would be very hard to clearly document the true "selling" price of the cars. Many simply exaggerate on what they actually sell their cars for. Then you've got the problem of market value. A car that sells for $4K on the west coast may bring $6K on the east coast. A car that sells for $5K in New Jersy may only bring $2.5K in Portland, OR. Each market is different, each buyer & seller is different.

Then you have the problem of the indivdual car itself, each car being different. Rust, engine condtion, factory options, aftermarket modfications all play into how much a prospective buyer may pay. Car buying experience also plays a big role in determining actual selling price. There is also a certain amount of luck when buying a used car... being some cars are sold quick for 1/2 the asking value (seller needs cash fast! and I happen to be at the right place at the right time). Also would you include cars sold to a friend for many hundreds less than an outsider? If so this could change how 2002's are valued in the market. I for one won't buy a 2002 unless it's a ripping deal.... and I think many out there do the same. Not many are willing to pay big $ for a 2002 no matter how nice it is. To document all this would be near impossible. For insurance purposes.... how could it be done?

Let's just look at cars that are sold online. Just look at ebay for example, how many of the 2002's (or other cars) that people bid on and win actually get sold? 70% or maybe less? What condition are the cars really in? How many auctions are 100% trueful? Then ask yourself how many bidders back out on their bid? For what reasons?

See how complex this all gets. Bottom line is most insurance co's total a 2002 out UNLESS you have agreed value or some other type of collector insurance. If you value your car get a policy with Grunyd,Hagerity, Condon & Skelly or others. Then if you have an accident, you've got a decent chance of getting a reasonable settlement.

WH

[Guest Anonymous]

"Fair Market Value" is what ANYTHING actually sells for on any given day. I do think, though, that over an extended period with enough people contributing their transactions to a database, trends are likely to emerge (highs and lows DO tend to cancel each other out over time) and it could be a good tool.

3 years ago, I paid $3500 for a '69 sunroof without haggling (much) despite the fact that the car had not drawn much interest even with a Roundel ad. It was kind of dull & dirty and needed tires and tie rod ends - BUT, it was virtually a one owner car ('69 to '99) with a full maintence history, perfect interior, very good original paint, both sets of original plates (black CA & euro delivery) and all the original books. I felt then (and still feel) that the price paid was correct.

Does my purchase set a benchmark? Don't think so. Is it worthwhile to know what someone paid for a specific year/model/color/condition car in Northern CA at that time? Probably, at least for someone considering a similar purchase.

[Guest Anonymous]

reaches approx. 70% of the Fair Market Value, not because it's a 2002 or whatever. What a car sells for is the fair market value, and it does vary by location as I said in my post. This (establishing FMV by the insured) is not an unusual practice in the insurance industry, but established procedure. The insurance companies do just this with their databases and the service they use that does what the individual can do themselves. Under a normal FMV/ACV policy, the insurance company has to pay no more and no less than the real FMV. All the individual differences between cars dictate each being worth a different amount, and the object is to find vehicles of similar condition, both mechanical and cosmetic. You do not need to find the exact same car, but similar cars to establish value.

The historic/collector insurance market does write "stated-amount" policies for an agreed value, and some (not many as they don't like wasting their time on individual oddities) of the big carriers will do the same. The historic/collector companies do place many restrictions on the use of the car, so if you want to use it as a daily-driver, you will violate their restrictions. I keep my '02 on a regular policy because of the restrictions, and it's an FMV policy.

Whether we like it or not, if you want the maximum value in the case of your car being totalled, or if you want to prevent your car from being totalled by having an FMV that is high enough to bring you under the 70% FMV totalling limit, then this is the game you have to play. I had a friend with an '80 528i that was the meat in a collision sandwich (the middle car). The 528i only had an FMV of about 1800 according to the ins. co., and they were going to total it as the damage was 1800 according to the estimates. The car was effectively undamaged other than the grills and rear bumper. The rear bumper was 1200 of that 1800 for a new one with installation. My buddy told the insurance company he could get an undamaged used one at the junkyard for 100 bucks, so they paid him ultimately 800 bucks and he kept his car from being totalled.

Do what you like.

[Guest Anonymous]

so a 12-year-old 5-speed conversion isn't worth the value increase of one done within the last year. The same for engines, one with 150k on it is going to be worth less than one with a documented rebuild 20k ago. A running database will be invaluable for insurance purposes as that is the reason to have one in the first place. It it helps buyers negotiate with sellers, that's just gravy.

[Guest Anonymous]

owner had done before any claim is the key to a higher value, as how else does one prove their ball-of-scrap '02 was the spotless example?

[Guest Anonymous]

2)You are having a good day when an idiot totals

your 02. (let's assume that you only have liability).

Since you don't have a previous agreement with

the idiot's insurance, it becomes a civil matter - a

negotiation, which in most instances can be

settled outside the courts. Basically you are

entitled,as a minimum, to restitution of your

economic loss (emotionally I would be destroyed if

I loose Bacchus)

So how do you determine economic loss? It is a

lot easier to do that on a 99 Neon than it is on a

2002. Note that ACV is out the window now, since

you didn't agree to that, and also you weren't really

planning to sell your precious 02 at that particular

moment.

============================

All car accidents are civil matters, unless the police cite someone or bring charges. You have property damage with the car and other property (light-poles, fences, hydrants etc.), and economic damage would be something like your loss of income that resulted from you medical injuries preventing you from earning a living. Property damage and economic damage are separate issues, and here we're only concerned with property damage.

===========================

I have never seen two identical 02's, or similar for

that matter. They have a soul, they all drive

diffently, have unique set ups and some have NLA

parts in them. How can you prove your "economic

loss"? Looking at comparable sales is a start - but

there isn't just enough information to compare your

car with others. The only way around this problem

is by hiring a professional auto appraiser who is

certified to assess the value of your car. These

people deal with these issues unique to vintage

cars. Can you do it after the fact: yes.

===========================

Similar cars is the key, as even the insurance companies know that trying to find identical cars is a waste of time. Similar cosmetic and mechanical condition. Cars have no soul and emotions are a waste of time if you try and convice your insurance company that the car has intrinsic value (unless you can document that value for your Bugatti Royale).

=============================

There is even a third scenario, where things get

really complicated and I won't even go there: You

have full coverage and get hit by someone else -

can someone care to tackle that one?.

====================================

You have two options if someone else hits your car and it's their fault. The other company (assuming they have insurance) pays for the damage, or your own company does (subject to your deductible). Since it's the other company's fault your insurance carrier prefers to do nothing and let them take care of it. Reluctantly they'll fix it under your policy, and then be forced to subrogate (effectively make the other company pay them) to get their money for your repairs that were not your fault. Subrogation costs your insurance carrier money, and that's why they are reluctant to fix your car when it's not their fault. You just have to be firm on the issue. Now if there is dispute over who is at fault, then you own company will be repairing/totalling your car until fault is established and then they would subrogate if it's not their fault.