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Creating Low End Power In A 2002?


76ohtwo

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Honestly you need to just stop in your tracks and think what you're asking of the car. If you want a car that's really fast in a straight line a 2002 is not the place to start. It can be done, no doubt, but it will cost you a lot of money and is not for the amateur mechanic.

A naturally aspirated motor, by design, cannot have a very broad power band while still having tons of peak horsepower. If you want 140hp at the crank, it's likely going to happen near 7000 rpm at your redline. Modern fuel and ignition management can improve the driveability drastically, but it won't have the "grunt" you're after. These cars are about momentum and proper gear selection.

If you're dead set on being able to mash the pedal and having your neck snap back then you'll be looking at a turbo (an m20 or m42 alone won't do it). Unless if you have great fab skills it will be costly.

You'd be better off buying a cheap sport bike and keeping the 02 stock than being disappointed in the 02 because it's not what you were after.

Also ie stage 2 probably won't need camber plates in the front for the street; you might have too much camber for a street car.

Cheap, reliable, fast.... Pick two.

Edited by Rocan

1974 Grey European Market BMW 2002 

1976 Yellow BMW 2002 "GOLDENROD" SOLD

1972 Yellow Austin Mini 1000

A bunch of Bikes...

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Honestly you need to just stop in your tracks and think what you're asking of the car. If you want a car that's really fast in a straight line a 2002 is not the place to start. It can be done, no doubt, but it will cost you a lot of money and is not for the amateur mechanic.

A naturally aspirated motor, by design, cannot have a very broad power band while still having tons of peak horsepower. If you want 140hp at the crank, it's likely going to happen near 7000 rpm at your redline. Modern fuel and ignition management can improve the driveability drastically, but it won't have the "grunt" you're after. These cars are about momentum and proper gear selection.

If you're dead set on being able to mash the pedal and having your neck snap back then you'll be looking at a turbo (an m20 or m42 alone won't do it). Unless if you have great fab skills it will be costly.

You'd be better off buying a cheap sport bike and keeping the 02 stock than being disappointed in the 02 because it's not what you were after.

Also ie stage 2 probably won't need camber plates in the front for the street; you might have too much camber for a street car.

Cheap, reliable, fast.... Pick two.

I don't necessarily want to mash the pedal and have my neck snap back, I just want something that accelerates quick enough to have some fun. I'm more about corners.

-Mattio523

 

1976 BMW 2002

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I think that this thread kinda got off on the wrong foot - which is perfectly ok. I'm not looking to build a car that's stupidly fast, just something quick enough to be exciting. The 7 second time wasn't really relevant to the question, and isn't actually a goal. The 140 hp is a goal I have, and according to IE, these parts will get me there. The goal I have is to build a car that I can enjoy on a daily basis that's decently quick on straights and especially in corners. I have all the suspension figured out and just had some questions about the engine, which is why I think it seemed as though I wanted such a crazy fast car.

 

Anyway, thanks for the comments. 

Edited by mattio523

-Mattio523

 

1976 BMW 2002

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I'd definitely look into an m42, It's a bit of work but it's a nice little setup. It's hard to say but for not much more money the M20 swap probably is not that much more work, although it takes up a fair bit of real estate in the engine bay. The trade off is gobs of torque for cutting into the front rad support to accommodate the 2 extra cylinders.

Either way, I would say go for an engine swap if you want more power and general hassle-free life of fuel injection.

Heck an m42 with blower or a turbo would be an absolute blast. M20 with a Holset hx35 turbo would push you into the super high 300's to mid 400's at the wheels on stock internals. Only issue is building the rest of the car to handle the power.

I'd see what exactly you want the car to do, and look at options besides a hot rod m10. Playing with diffs will hurt you either in top speed or acceleration if you go too far in ratios. If you want a stop light to stop light bruiser, m20 and sticky tires and beefed up rear end will probably blow your mind. If you want a high revving top end power, look into m10/42/s14.

Power demands can also be met with boost or nitrous. The m10 is an absolute monster with the right engine build and turbo. BMW made over well over 1000hp with the F1 "Megatron" turbo engine, although it was a 1.5 variant and heavily worked over and tuned, they did have short lives. That being said an M20 can be pushed into the 600's fairly easy with boost from an appropriate turbo. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is there's a few decent engine choices just from BMW and it all depends on what you want. More and more F20C (Honda s2000 engines) are popping up in these cars aswell. They go to 9000 rpm stock and make like what, 240hp naturally aspirated. CA Tuning makes a swap kit for it but it's pricey.

1974 2002 - M20/Getrag 260 swap underway

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I'd definitely look into an m42, It's a bit of work but it's a nice little setup. It's hard to say but for not much more money the M20 swap probably is not that much more work, although it takes up a fair bit of real estate in the engine bay. The trade off is gobs of torque for cutting into the front rad support to accommodate the 2 extra cylinders.

Either way, I would say go for an engine swap if you want more power and general hassle-free life of fuel injection.

Heck an m42 with blower or a turbo would be an absolute blast. M20 with a Holset hx35 turbo would push you into the super high 300's to mid 400's at the wheels on stock internals. Only issue is building the rest of the car to handle the power.

I'd see what exactly you want the car to do, and look at options besides a hot rod m10. Playing with diffs will hurt you either in top speed or acceleration if you go too far in ratios. If you want a stop light to stop light bruiser, m20 and sticky tires and beefed up rear end will probably blow your mind. If you want a high revving top end power, look into m10/42/s14.

Power demands can also be met with boost or nitrous. The m10 is an absolute monster with the right engine build and turbo. BMW made over well over 1000hp with the F1 "Megatron" turbo engine, although it was a 1.5 variant and heavily worked over and tuned, they did have short lives. That being said an M20 can be pushed into the 600's fairly easy with boost from an appropriate turbo. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is there's a few decent engine choices just from BMW and it all depends on what you want. More and more F20C (Honda s2000 engines) are popping up in these cars aswell. They go to 9000 rpm stock and make like what, 240hp naturally aspirated. CA Tuning makes a swap kit for it but it's pricey.

I'm going to keep looking at the M42. Thanks!

-Mattio523

 

1976 BMW 2002

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I've been thinking of doing an M42, M20, or even S14 swap. If that would be easier for a daily driver, I'll have to do that, because I'm going to drive it every day.

 

A 2002tii engine with 9.5:1 pistons and a 285 cam makes about 150 crank HP. I had this setup for years and it was great for both road and track (I used a Norris model 301 cam, which is similar to a Schrick 285). Powerband was 4000-6800 RPM, I often took it to 7000 RPM on stock rocker arms. After I lightened the car to 2000 lb it was even quicker. And no carbs to mess with.

 

Honestly you need to just stop in your tracks and think what you're asking of the car.

This x 10^^. As has been said in many other posts, drive the car, do the suspension mods and get used to that, put in a higher ratio diff, then see what you want to do with power. And do your big brake upgrade and get it working before you increase power.

 

Just gonna raise my usual "M20 or Nitrous will probably get you there easily and cheaper" flag...

 

13--I still don't understand the nitrous flag, and would like to become educated. My current understanding is that it is for WOT or near-WOT only, which does not sound like a great recipe for the twisties, However perhaps a multi-stage kit would be drivable for mountain roads and closed-circuit road courses, but I just don't know. Here's my question from a previous post. Perhaps should start a separate nitrous thread so as to not hijack this one.

 

[FB73tii] Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:20 PM

I am not down on nitrous, but don't know much about it and associate it with a short boost of power rather than sustained power for say several hours of mountain driving. Didn't know it was used in airplanes--perhaps you can educate us or provide links with the real scoop. I have heard of very small shots used to spool up turbos to reduce lag, that sounds cool. What are the economics if used continuously? E.g., how many $$ per hour? And at what point do you need to do internal mods to handle the added power? Thx--Fred

 

Bang For Your Buck Go Faster Mods

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/147599-bang-for-your-buck-go-faster-mods/page-2

 

Mattio523: The thread linked above as well as the following one may be interesting reading for you. There is also a recent thread on M20 swaps you can find via "search"

 

"quicker" Acceleration

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/148358-quicker-acceleration/

 

PS: Since corners are what you are into :D I would suggest getting the camber plates. That negative 0.75° (or whatever they are) will make nice improvement in the corners. If you do a lot of straight line driving you might see a bit more wear on the inside shoulders, but IMHO a small price to pay. Without them you  are just going to eat the outside edges in the corners anyway!

Edited by FB73tii

--Fred

'74tii (Colorado) track car

'69ti (Black/Red/Yellow) rolling resto track car

'73tii (Fjord....RIP)

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have you ever driven a 2002 before? is this your first car? i would suggest to put your location in your profile and see if there are other 2002's around you can ride in or drive. the spec you described is pretty common for a 2002. the must be someone near you that can show you what it feels like. don't commit to any build until you are familiar with what the "feel" you want feels like.

i would be surprized if you could get anywhere near 140 with those parts. most folks with more build and dual sidedrafts don't get that much.....

 

Also, where did you buy the S14 for your car? That's something we've been thinking of doing instead of modding an M10.

IMHO, S14 is not a good street engine for an 02, and this is unfortunately where the old saying of "if you have to ask you can't afford it" comes into play.

S14's are stupid expensive (a rebuildable core costs more than a built M10..), getting rare to find and all the power is above 6k rpm. it is wonderous on a race track, which is where mine spends 80% of its life. around town? a nice M10, M42, M10tii, or M20 is the way to go!

the best 2002 initial setup? mild M10, nice suspension and brakes, and spend the rest of your money on a helmet and driving schools.

but then, the more hp/engine swap/school topic has been beat to death before..:-)

Edited by mlytle

2xM3

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I have dual Weber 40 DCOEs and a Schrick 292 cam  with 3.90 LSD. A few other mods as well including shaved head and block to increase compression, heavier valve springs etc. This set up is rated at 140-150hp. The low end seems quite adequate to me. The performance in the mid-high range is awesome. I haven't officially timed the 60 but I would guess it is in the 8.5-9.0s range. Plenty of grunt for me on the low end relative to what you get after that...

 

You might check out this link for some additional ideas/suggestions about performance tweaks....

 

www.bimmers.com/02/upgrades/engine.html

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For max low end torque and driveability keep the motor stock including the cam, carb and exhaust system. With anything else, your torque curve will be sharper and move towards higher rpm. Stock carburation is ideal for max air velocity at low rpm's. Anything else, and you will loose low end torque, especially with the 38/38. Forget about all the hype you hear with some of these prescribed set-ups unless you want to do the Fast & the Furious thing. I've tried longer duration cams, larger carbs etc. You just end up with bad MPG and lower low end torque. If you want to do any "improvements" you should focus on stiffening and tightening the suspension such as going to slightly stiffer springs, shocks, larger diameter anti-sway bars, new steering components including a good steering box, new ball  and tie rod joints etc and some good tires and rims along with sorted out brakes.

 

You could also change the final drive to a higer ratio (lower gearing), but I would advise against it unless you plan on installing an overdrive 5 speed.

 

Slavs

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Mattio523,  I'd humbly suggest that you try and find someone local to you who you could snag a ride along from.  Best way to get a good real world perspective.  Where abouts are you located?

 

I

I'm located in CT.

 

A 2002tii engine with 9.5:1 pistons and a 285 cam makes about 150 crank HP. I had this setup for years and it was great for both road and track (I used a Norris model 301 cam, which is similar to a Schrick 285). Powerband was 4000-6800 RPM, I often took it to 7000 RPM on stock rocker arms. After I lightened the car to 2000 lb it was even quicker. And no carbs to mess with.

 

This x 10^^. As has been said in many other posts, drive the car, do the suspension mods and get used to that, put in a higher ratio diff, then see what you want to do with power. And do your big brake upgrade and get it working before you increase power.

 

 

13--I still don't understand the nitrous flag, and would like to become educated. My current understanding is that it is for WOT or near-WOT only, which does not sound like a great recipe for the twisties, However perhaps a multi-stage kit would be drivable for mountain roads and closed-circuit road courses, but I just don't know. Here's my question from a previous post. Perhaps should start a separate nitrous thread so as to not hijack this one.

 

[FB73tii] Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:20 PM

I am not down on nitrous, but don't know much about it and associate it with a short boost of power rather than sustained power for say several hours of mountain driving. Didn't know it was used in airplanes--perhaps you can educate us or provide links with the real scoop. I have heard of very small shots used to spool up turbos to reduce lag, that sounds cool. What are the economics if used continuously? E.g., how many $$ per hour? And at what point do you need to do internal mods to handle the added power? Thx--Fred

 

Bang For Your Buck Go Faster Mods

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/147599-bang-for-your-buck-go-faster-mods/page-2

 

Mattio523: The thread linked above as well as the following one may be interesting reading for you. There is also a recent thread on M20 swaps you can find via "search"

 

"quicker" Acceleration

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/148358-quicker-acceleration/

 

PS: Since corners are what you are into :D I would suggest getting the camber plates. That negative 0.75° (or whatever they are) will make nice improvement in the corners. If you do a lot of straight line driving you might see a bit more wear on the inside shoulders, but IMHO a small price to pay. Without them you  are just going to eat the outside edges in the corners anyway!

Thanks! I'll look at all that stuff - and the first part is especially helpful.

 

have you ever driven a 2002 before? is this your first car? i would suggest to put your location in your profile and see if there are other 2002's around you can ride in or drive. the spec you described is pretty common for a 2002. the must be someone near you that can show you what it feels like. don't commit to any build until you are familiar with what the "feel" you want feels like.

i would be surprized if you could get anywhere near 140 with those parts. most folks with more build and dual sidedrafts don't get that much.....

 

IMHO, S14 is not a good street engine for an 02, and this is unfortunately where the old saying of "if you have to ask you can't afford it" comes into play.

S14's are stupid expensive (a rebuildable core costs more than a built M10..), getting rare to find and all the power is above 6k rpm. it is wonderous on a race track, which is where mine spends 80% of its life. around town? a nice M10, M42, M10tii, or M20 is the way to go!

the best 2002 initial setup? mild M10, nice suspension and brakes, and spend the rest of your money on a helmet and driving schools.

but then, the more hp/engine swap/school topic has been beat to death before..:-)

Thanks for this. I'm in CT - yes it's my first car, but I have a Tahoe to drive as well. I have experience behind the wheel of several cars. I've never been in a 2002, but heard great things from all of the people I've met who own them. I have a friend who has one - I've just never had the chance to drive or ride in his. I think the S14 would be something further down the road to pursue when I get a higher paying job.

 

Thanks! This sounds like a good setup. 8.5-9 is fine - I don't really care about the actual number - more the excitement that comes when you hit the pedal.

 

For max low end torque and driveability keep the motor stock including the cam, carb and exhaust system. With anything else, your torque curve will be sharper and move towards higher rpm. Stock carburation is ideal for max air velocity at low rpm's. Anything else, and you will loose low end torque, especially with the 38/38. Forget about all the hype you hear with some of these prescribed set-ups unless you want to do the Fast & the Furious thing. I've tried longer duration cams, larger carbs etc. You just end up with bad MPG and lower low end torque. If you want to do any "improvements" you should focus on stiffening and tightening the suspension such as going to slightly stiffer springs, shocks, larger diameter anti-sway bars, new steering components including a good steering box, new ball  and tie rod joints etc and some good tires and rims along with sorted out brakes.

 

You could also change the final drive to a higer ratio (lower gearing), but I would advise against it unless you plan on installing an overdrive 5 speed.

 

Slavs

Thanks for this. This set up that I had listed was based on recommendations from the owner of Ireland Engineering, so I thought I'd post it up here with my questions. I'd like to do a 5 speed, so maybe the gearing would help. :-)

Edited by mattio523

-Mattio523

 

1976 BMW 2002

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I'm located in CT.

 

 

Perfect!  Then I'd highly, highly HIGHLY suggest giving Matt and/or Nate at Sports Car Restoration a call and set up a good time to swing by.  I'm sure they'd happy to take you guys out for a spin.  I'd even tell them about your plans.

 

Nate/ Matt

Sports Car Restoration,LLC

123 Whiting St. Unit J

Plainville,CT 06062

860 793 2002

 

All this talk is balderdash until you've got a baseline to go from.

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Perfect!  Then I'd highly, highly HIGHLY suggest giving Matt and/or Nate at Sports Car Restoration a call and set up a good time to swing by.  I'm sure they'd happy to take you guys out for a spin.  I'd even tell them about your plans.

 

Nate/ Matt

Sports Car Restoration,LLC

123 Whiting St. Unit J

Plainville,CT 06062

860 793 2002

 

All this talk is balderdash until you've got a baseline to go from.

I agree. I really do need a baseline. I'll give them a call tomorrow during business hours or shoot them an email. Thanks a ton for giving me this information! The one thing that this thread has helped a lot with is making me realize how much I need to consider where I'm starting from and not just where I'm going with the car - or any car. Maybe if Matt answers the phone, we'll bond over having the same name, haha.

 

there are bunches of 02'ers in Ct.  where in Ct are you?

 

and...Lime Rock Park is in Ct.  plenty of Driving School opportunities at that track.

I'm in Southwestern CT, Fairfield County. I love Lime Rock - my dad and I go up there every year for "Sunday in the Park" and met lots of nice 02ers there; which is what started my fascination with the cars. A few years back, we saw an Inca '76 which planted the seed. This year, we met lots of 02ers, and one guy in particular this year, Roger, who had/has a white 2002 with a Kamei spoiler. That's what really started the addiction. I have a picture of that car from the show as my computer background. He told me about his stroker, the Webers, suspension, etc, and I knew I wanted to build one. They all told me about the website and that's how I ended up here. Anyway, I'm going to try and find one to ride in - I love karting as well so maybe I'll do some shifter karting - or just regular karting - if I can find it, to practice my driving technique, get a feel for control, etc. 

-Mattio523

 

1976 BMW 2002

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