engine and drivetrain (Long) Intro And Question

[quietglow]

Hello all,

 

Apologies for mixing intro and my first plea for help (and also the length of this).

 

I discovered 02s in 1996 while in grad school. I saw a friend's car, decided I had to have one, and joined the BMW listserv to find one. It didn't take long: I ended up with a heavily modified '74 that I flew across country and bought sight unseen and drove home. It ended up needing a bunch of engine work, and being a poor grad student, I learned to do it myself. I had a whole lot of fun.

 

In '97, while walking home from school one day, I saw a blue '02 sitting on flats in an open garage (no kidding). I made a point of walking by the house regularly after that, and one day I saw a guy out in the yard. He agreed to sell me the car for $250 and a six pack of beer. I agreed if he'd let me get it running in his garage. I couldn't afford to tow it home. Turns out, it started and drove in a few minutes. I drove it home and got to work recovering a title and learning about the car. Turns out it was the 467th 02 into the country, made in 1968.

 

I worked on the car at school until the next summer when I drove it back to my parents' house. They had a very nice garage at the time. Over the next three months, I basically did a bolt off restoration. I converted the garage into a paint booth and painted it Malaga (it was originally Delphin, and had been been brush painted two tones of blue). I drove it back to school that fall a shiny, mostly new 2002. I was very happy.

 

Fast forward to 2002 (no kidding). I was at grad school part 2, in Carbondale Illinois. The 02 was my daily driver. One day I was on a (very stupid) highway with a speed limit of 55 AND stop lights. I was moving at a speed somewhat north of 55 when a light changed. I slammed on my brakes and felt the pedal hold for a second then almost sink to the floor. I managed to stop without anything bad happening, but there was clearly something wrong. Later I diagnosed the problem: the master cylinder seals were leaking heavily. This was to be the car's undoing.

 

The first 02s into the country were an unholy blend of old 1600 parts and new 02 stuff, with no real standardization between the cars. My car had one of the several master cylinders types used in a 1600. At that time, finding those was nearly impossible. I learned that my only option was to send the core out to be hand rebuilt by an outfit in SoCal. The cost was much too high for me to afford at the time, and I had no real place to work on the car.

 

The car sat in my driveway until 2006 when my dad offered to put it on a trailer and haul it back to their new house in Eureka California. I was in the process of getting a job (which eventually brought me to my present location in Chicago). He put it up on jackstands in their barn, and it's been sitting there since. I'm in the process of buying a house that has a garage that begs for a project, and I wonder if my 02 is it.

 

So, that's the intro, and here's the question(s):

 

What would you do with a car in this state? It's been covered all this time, and when I check it yearly, it doesn't look as if the rust I fixed has come back. That said, I suspect it will need a complete mechanical overhall, and I imagine sourcing 1600 parts hasn't gotten any easier. It's been changed enough from its original state that I am not concerned with "originality" so all forms of getting it back on the road are open options. I remember that people used to drop M3 drivelines in them back in the day, and I've thought about the possibility of maybe doing a 320 or 318 engine and tranny install? That doesn't solve the brake issues. Has anyone basically started with an 02 shell and basically built it up with newer parts? Should I take out stock in a rust penetrant company?

 

I don't have photos of it handy, but I'll post some when I find them.

 

Thanks in advance for your ideas.

 

Joe

 

Edited December 15, 2013 by quietglow

[John_in_VA]

If you don't have the time, patience, talent, or money to get it to where you want it, pass it on. Guys here are doing projects like this all the time.

[TR]

Grab a six pack or pot of coffee and spend time searching FAQ for answers to many of your questions.  There is a ton of info here and you have tons of options for your project.  My first suggestion is to do a thorough rust inspection.  Take the seats out, pull up the carpet and crawl through the car.  My '73 was well taken care of and then stored in a warehouse for 20 years.  It has rust in a few places that I did not expect but other than that it's solid.  As many FAQers have said, correcting rust can be difficult and expensive so check the body and then make your plan.

[FB73tii]

Joe...welcome to the FAQ community and great story on how you came into 2002's. So...what happened to that '74?

Sounds like you have the interest, aptitude and experience to make this a great project. It's been sitting only 7 years and needs a simply needs a master cylinder? Someone here can point you to a cylinder that will work. I say change all the fluids, clean the carb(s), fix the brakes and take it for a drive!

 

Drive it for a while to get re-familiarized and then decide what level of project you want to take on. There are plenty of restoration threads on the FAQ. Here is a recent one, though a bit different because you have more history with your car and better know the condition of the body.

Where To Start On Restoration ?
http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/148146-where-to-start-on-restoration/

With regard to engine work or swaps, again you need to figure out what you want to end up with and what your budget is. Here are a couple recent threads:

Bang For Your Buck Go Faster Mods
http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/147599-bang-for-your-buck-go-faster-mods/

"quicker" Acceleration
http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/148358-quicker-acceleration/

 

Here's a link to a few bare metal restoration thoughts and photos of my cars, including my recent '69 2002 acquisition:

Getting Back Into My 02... Going Down To The Sheet Metal And Back?
http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/145180-getting-back-into-my-02-going-down-to-the-sheet-metal-and-back/

Best of luck with the project!

Edited December 15, 2013 by FB73tii

[ray_]

Yeah, what Fred said!

 

Pull the plugs, dump in Marvel Mystery Oil, let it sit a couple days and put a wrench on the crank nut or rock the car in gear to be sure the motor is free. Meanwhile you got a fresh battery, right? ;-)

 

Get a m/c, change the fluids and drive!

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it's easier to source a compatible m/c now as compared to when yours went bad.

 

GL,

[gracer]

All the brake components can be easily upgraded to the newer stuff.  Now is a good time to put in a bigger brake system.  Search this forum and you will find many ways to do that.  My first 02 was a 67, 1602.  It died on the race track with TII struts and 320I vented rotors.  Not the brakes fault, mine.  All the newer parts are an easy bolt on.  All it takes is time,skill and money.  G

[quietglow]

You guys are giving me hope! 

 

Yeah that period of time (01-02) was sort of an odd point in 02 land if I remember correctly. The 02 specific listserv was no longer and the general BMW list didn't seem particularly interested. Looking through the archives here, there is so much creative adaption that I never remember from back in the day. M3 driveline installs happened, but I never remember hearing about people doing other E30 conversions. My greatest mechanic skill is being intrepid, not being good. So I am fine doing work (there was a woman who used to answer the BMWCCA help line that claimed I pulled an 02 head faster than anyone she'd known) but I like to have a roadmap when doing something outside the box.

 

@TR Yeah, I fixed a bunch of rust on this car when I torn it down the first time. It was the hardest part of the process, no doubt.

 

@FB73ii I sold the 76 to fund the overhall of this car. I wish I knew where it was. It had some crazy reupholstery job inside. Blue vinyl with red piping. If any of you ended up with it, do let me know! And your idea of just trying to get it rolling is solid. I don't particularly want an E30 driveline as much as I'd like the car to not fall into the black hole of unavailable parts again. I just assumed (given my y2k view of the matter) that I'd have to update in order to accomplish that. It actually has a weber 32/36 on it (that's the bigger one right? 36/36?) and it was fast as hell. Now a twin carb setup might be fun...

[Napes]

Just to answer your last Weber question, there are two commonly used single carbs on '02s - the smaller 32/36 that's on your car now and the slightly bigger, but synchronous-opening, 38/38.  Like nearly everything else you've mentioned there is a ton of info on the Search on these.

 

Bob Napier

[quietglow]

Added a photo (I was shooting medium format film last time I was out there). Check out that vintage Illinois plate and the rainbow Apple sticker. Not on jackstands, as I remembered, but damn it looks like there is actually still air in the tires. 

 

@Bob The 38/38 is what's on there, thanks. I remember getting the massive increase in power (and gas consumption) over the first double barrel weber that I put on it. It actually had the original Solex on it when I bought it.

[dasfrogger]

Before your next trip to California, I'd do a lot of thinking on what you want that car to be. How deep down the rabbits hole do you want to go?

 

Once you get to California do a thorough inspection of the state the car. If you have time, can you get it going like Ray suggested?

 

On the way back do some research to figure out if the amount of work needed to make it what you want fits your budget/time/skill/etc.

Good luck with the project! I hope it's nice and dry and you have it on the road again soon!

Edit: also, i've got a huge stash of early parts. If I can help with anything, please let me know.

Edited December 16, 2013 by dasfrogger

[quietglow]

@dasfrogger Wise, for sure. Having a goal for the project and being honest about it up front does fend off that unfortunate craigslist post that we're all probably familiar with: I have a shell of a car, 15k worth of parts, and it's all on a trailer for you for 5k because my wife is going to divorce me if I don't sell it. I should have said originally that I completed the original refresh of the car in 3 months because I worked an average of 14hrs a day on it easily. My spouse is pretty damned understanding, but I did think it wise that I dedicate the project to her (AL from the license plate is Allison). 

 

I have always preferred a car in untouched, even if pretty ratty, shape over a restored one. This car really is a member of our family, so my chief goal would be putting back in my garage, running well enough for spins over to the countryside on sundays (I'd say a daily driver, but I walk to work). If the rust is back, and not a safety issue, I'd likely try to stabilize it and go back to getting it back to driving condition. I'm a fan of spirited driving, but it's not headed for the track.

 

The story is sad because I really was happy with it just the way it was when the MC went south. I wish I'd paid whatever it took to put it back on the road because I'd likely still be driving it today.

[Mike Self]

I believe you have one of the earliest US spec 2002s on the board--well worth saving, especially since it isn't a rust bucket.  

 

Given the history of an unrepaired leaky master cylinder, I would suspect that the driver's side front frame rail that goes up under the driver's floorboard is all rusted out from the leaking brake fluid (what happened to my '69) and will have to be addressed.  

 

Your car has a high enough VIN that it should have hydraulic clutch activation; finding a replacement master cylinder shouldn't be a problem.  Check your brake calipers to see if they're two or four piston; IIRC there's an Opel Kadette M/C that will work on the early 2002s; otherwise, drop me an e-mail and I'll look up the BMW part number for you; bet Blunt or Max (on this board) can find the parts you need.  And if worst comes to worst re M/C availability, White Post Restorations (White Post VA) can bore and sleeve your old one back to standard size and fit with new innards for a very reasonable price.  

 

Anyway, you have a nice early car with a lot of unique features that only the early '68s have (like the embossed trim on the front of the hood, no headrests, outside mirror mounted on the leading edge of the driver's door)--keep it nice and stock (including the one barrel Solex--they're bulletproof) and preserve its uniqueness.  And if you're gonna repaint it, put it back to its original color...Lotsa expertise here on the board to help you with your project.

 

cheers, and welcome to the fraternity/sorority

 

mike

Edited December 16, 2013 by mike

[quietglow]

Thanks Mike.

 

Yeah spot on: that rail was actually pretty eaten up when I got it -- one of the only rusty spots on the car when I got it. I fabbed a support and drenched the whole area in and out with POR15. It's always the spot I check when I'm out there. I haven't had it up on stands and properly inspected it since it headed west, but the rust didn't seem to be coming back. Actually the rust I did see was on the lip of the trunk deck. There was a little inside when I painted it and I apparently didn't take it seriously enough at the time. I'm guessing that I'll need to find a new lid.

 

Funny story (and sad, man the more I think about this car, the worse I feel) about the seats: the owner I bought it from had installed some recaro knockoffs. He called me a week after I had it and said he'd forgotten that he had the original seats up in the attic. They turned out to be more or less new. I'd never actually sat in one in which the horsehair wasn't pouring out, but for several years I had NOS 02 seats (with no headrests!). I sat in it last year when I was out, and the seat finally tore in the spot they always do. Sheepskin covers are in the masterplan.

[Mike Self]

What color are your seats?  A torn driver's seat cushion is an easy fix; just find someone on the board with a back seat in the same color that's all sun rotted at the top, get the upholstery material off the frame and take it to an upholstery shop.  They'll take the undamaged (and probably unused) back seat material and repair your front seat--it'll look completely original as the material will match perfectly--it's all aged at the same rate.  I've done that with both my '69 and '73 and you wouldn't notice unless I told you.  You can also do this with carpet--use the back seat footwell carpet to piece in the front--esp the driver's side where most wear takes place.  You can make the piece-in seam under the rubber heel pad so it's unnoticeable.  

 

An early '68 might have tobacco, brown (more of a milk chocolate color), black or dark blue seats; only the brown will be difficult to find as it was only used in '67 and '68.  

 

cheers

mike

[quietglow]

Ahhh excellent idea. The seats are black, so should be pretty easy to find a donor.

 

I replaced the carpet when I refreshed it, unfortunately. It was a pretty decent replacement (bavauto supplied) but I remember deciding not to toss the original in case I decided to go back to it. The replacement was just a little too synthetic/shiny. Same with the headliner which was shot when I got it. The replacement was okay, but a little on the plasticy side. 

 

I was just talking with a friend about the project and I remembered the thing that always made me fear digging into the drivetrain again. When I put the engine back in, I managed to get something wrong with the tranny bolt-up. When I started it the first time, the problem caused the clutch to eat itself and broke the sleeve that the pilot bearing slides on. Finding a replacement for that sleeve and another clutch (which is specific to this year only?) turned epic as was the process of removing/replacing the tranny without a lift. I'm not sure why I didn't just pull the engine again. So sourcing a clutch is doable these days? (I just checked bavauto, and the don't show stock)

Edited December 16, 2013 by quietglow