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73 Tii Non-Starting-Fuel Pooling Issue


achman

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Personally I would not go chasing after the dizzy springs just yet... Achman said it idles and ran fine once it was started. I don't think the dizzy is very far off for start if it was running fine before the CSV and fuel problems began.

 

As for myself I would be really concerned with debris in my fuel system. It would be a bad day to ruin the KF pump because of crap floating through the fuel system. Achman running the system without the screen in the tank even for a short time makes me nervous (I am not sure you have a screen in the electric fuel pump since it is a 5 series pump but you should have your main fuel filter to protect you).

I would start by pulling the fuel tank inspecting/cleaning/repairing. I really liked por-15 fuel system repair package- http://www.eastwood.com/por-15-fuel-tank-repair-kit.html . Then check the fuel collection canister near the electric pump. Fuel filter just prior to the KF pump would be next. Blow out all the lines.

74 tii
"I know just enough to be dangerous"

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Brian, I put together a bunch of quotes from this thread below to try to help sort this out. I suspect there may be multiple issues that are starting (no pun intended) to compound and confuse the diagnosis. The car has a history of poor starting when warm, so something has been a little off for a long time. Perhaps that something has gotten worse. Since the engine runs fine (or at least used to) once this issue began, this points to the starting circuit. Just for clarity, I see the components of the starting circuit as the tii water temp sender, the tii cold start relay, the CSV, and the Kugelfischer warm-up regulator (and of course the starter motor, battery and ignition switch).

 

While I mentioned the fuel pump, as prompted by your comment on not being able to cap off the CSV feed line effectively, since the car runs well this may not be an issue,. On the other hand, as recently suggested, if the return line is constricted, then perhaps pressure is too high when the KF is not feeding fuel, but once running draws enough fuel to lower the return pressure. I am just guessing here, need a fuel pressure gauge to know.

 

I am starting to think about your adjustment to the KF warm-up regulator, as it effects air flow on start up. I don't know the symptoms of a sticky regulator, but this may be something to begin to consider. Any air regulator issues *may or may not* be related to the adjustment you made. Here is where things start to compound--you did one thing, and another thing may be happening on its own. As asked before--what specifically did you do, and have you made any changes to the KF since? BTW, flooring the accelerator to start the car just sounds wrong. Must be that you needed enough air to overcome the failed CSV.

 

pilotnbr1: I too thought the CSV would fail in "closed only" mode, but clearly that is not the case. It is very odd that a valve that should be closed with no electrical current is allowing fuel to pass through. I could imagine in an old valve debris could hold it open. I am with others in saying that a new part can be defective, see it with thermostats somewhat often.

 

Finally, having BTDT, perhaps the best piece of advice I can give at this point is walk away and let your head clear. Rent a car and go on the vacation you have been planning. Once you get some distance (again, no pun intended!), think through the entire sequence of things that have occurred, and try to think outside of the box. I know you have already been doing this, but sometimes after this process I have an "aha", something I did not think of before. The thing is we often think there is *one* thing, that once we find it all will become clear and we can fix it. But when multiple things are going wrong, and perhaps interacting with each other, we have to pull together a number of threads to figure it out.

 

Best of luck, keep us posted. --Fred '69 & '74tii

 

I recently replaced the fuel pump with a 5 series, so I know that is good...

 

When hot, the car has never started very well. After not being able to start it while hot once, I cleaned the screen int he fuel pickup, then cranked down on the big washer thing on the K pump, flooring the accelerator and holding it there and cranking until the car started.. It started the next two days fine, hot or cold after that. Now I have this pooling issue.

 

It sprays continuously when the ignition is turned on...and also while the engine is running...

 

-haven't checked cold start air supply

 

I tried to plug the fuel hose with a bolt and a clamp (the one going to CSV) and the pressure was so high it leaked anyway. I can't plug it.

 

besides being hard to start, the car runs perfectly hot or cold once started.

 

FB73tii I am no electrical engineer but I think the CSV only OPENS WITH electrical power sent to it and is CLOSES during the ABSENSE of power.

Edited by FB73tii

--Fred

'74tii (Colorado) track car

'69ti (Black/Red/Yellow) rolling resto track car

'73tii (Fjord....RIP)

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I would lump the coil, ballast resistor if present, and timing into the starting circuit too :)

 

Poor hot starts could easily be related to all of the above.

 

Brian didn't specify, and now I'm not recalling if he has verified the CSV is always spraying with the ignition on, but every time the key is turned you get a good second of spritz from the CSV. Multiple attempts at starting and you have multiple spritzes produced.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Brian, I put together a bunch of quotes from this thread below to try to help sort this out. I suspect there may be multiple issues that are starting (no pun intended) to compound and confuse the diagnosis. The car has a history of poor starting when warm, so something has been a little off for a long time. Perhaps that something has gotten worse. Since the engine runs fine (or at least used to) once this issue began, this points to the starting circuit. Just for clarity, I see the components of the starting circuit as the tii water temp sender, the tii cold start relay, the CSV, and the Kugelfischer warm-up regulator (and of course the starter motor, battery and ignition switch).

 

While I mentioned the fuel pump, as prompted by your comment on not being able to cap off the CSV feed line effectively, since the car runs well this may not be an issue,. On the other hand, as recently suggested, if the return line is constricted, then perhaps pressure is too high when the KF is not feeding fuel, but once running draws enough fuel to lower the return pressure. I am just guessing here, need a fuel pressure gauge to know.

 

I am starting to think about your adjustment to the KF warm-up regulator, as it effects air flow on start up. I don't know the symptoms of a sticky regulator, but this may be something to begin to consider. Any air regulator issues *may or may not* be related to the adjustment you made. Here is where things start to compound--you did one thing, and another thing may be happening on its own. As asked before--what specifically did you do, and have you made any changes to the KF since? BTW, flooring the accelerator to start the car just sounds wrong. Must be that you needed enough air to overcome the failed CSV.

 

pilotnbr1: I too thought the CSV would fail in "closed only" mode, but clearly that is not the case. It is very odd that a valve that should be closed with no electrical current is allowing fuel to pass through. I could imagine in an old valve debris could hold it open. I am with others in saying that a new part can be defective, see it with thermostats somewhat often.

 

Finally, having BTDT, perhaps the best piece of advice I can give at this point is walk away and let your head clear. Rent a car and go on the vacation you have been planning. Once you get some distance, think through the entire sequence of things that have occurred, and try to think outside of the box. I know you have already been doing this, but sometimes after this process I have an "aha", something I did not think of before. The thing is we often think there is *one* thing, that once we find it all will become clear and we can fix it. But when multiple things are going wrong, and perhaps interacting with each other, we have to pull together a number of threads to figure it out.

 

Best of luck, keep us posted. --Fred '69 & '74tii

Ray

Stop reading this! Don't you have anything better to do?? :P
Two running things. Two broken things.

 

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Thanks for all the great tips and advice.

Still not working.

To Ray: CSV sprays when just ignition is turned on, before engine cranks. This is the NEW one.

Someone mentioned that he thought CSV defaults to ON, and only closes when current is applied.

I guess this makes sense to me as it would explain the problem. That would mean the relay is bad yes?

You can't wire the CSV directly to a dash switch right, it has to be a switch to the relay? Or have I got that wrong?

Either way it looks like it won't be the BMW going to the BMW show.

Thanks for the offer to pay for the first night of my room,even if it was in jest because I am being a crybaby, it was appreciated.

1973 2002Tii Agave "Gerta"-----1972 2002Tii Verona project-----------2003 Porsche 911 X51-------2016 FIAT Abarth--------2003 Porsche Boxster----------2005 Honda Element

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I got the car started, but it is running horribly, like on 3 cylinders. I took some video and am uploading, will post the link here. When I bring it to 3k rpm, it smooths out some, but when I rev it, some whitish bluish smoke come out the pipe. This car never smoked before ever.

Any thoughts?

1973 2002Tii Agave "Gerta"-----1972 2002Tii Verona project-----------2003 Porsche 911 X51-------2016 FIAT Abarth--------2003 Porsche Boxster----------2005 Honda Element

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Thanks for all the great tips and advice. Still not working. To Ray: CSV sprays when just ignition is turned on, before engine cranks. This is the NEW one.

 

Good! As long as it STOPS shortly after,

 

Someone mentioned that he thought CSV defaults to ON, and only closes when current is applied.

 

NOPE!

 

 

You can't wire the CSV directly to a dash switch right, it has to be a switch to the relay? Or have I got that wrong?

 

Wrong.

 

Either way it looks like it won't be the BMW going to the BMW show. Thanks for the offer to pay for the first night of my room,even if it was in jest because I am being a crybaby, it was appreciated.

 

Bill is serious ;-)

Ray

Stop reading this! Don't you have anything better to do?? :P
Two running things. Two broken things.

 

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I'm with Fred. You need to step away from the car for a while. The videos clearly show a poor idle circuit and almost sounds like there is an ignition miss-fire.   You would be surprised how bad these cars will run with a bad spark plug wire / condensor / Pertronix / coil.

Edited by jgerock

Jim Gerock

 

Riviera 69 2002 built 5/30/69 "Oscar"

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To Ray: CSV sprays when just ignition is turned on, before engine cranks. This is the NEW one. Someone mentioned that he thought CSV defaults to ON, and only closes when current is applied.

 

To clarify, the CSV is by default closed. There is no current going to it when the engine is warm, or when the ambient temperature is high enough. If the temperature relay reads the temp sender and it says "cold", the temp relay sends current to the CSV and it opens. The possible confusion here is that when the temp RELAY fails, it can fail in the ON position, sending constant current to the CSV and flooding the engine. But simply pulling the electrical plug on the CSV will stop this. I have also heard of the relay failing in the OFF position. In either case, the bad RELAY may be fixed by soldering the circuit board, or by a manual push button to send power to the CSV only when you want it to spray. Again, best of luck in getting this sorted. Eventually you will!

Edited by FB73tii

--Fred

'74tii (Colorado) track car

'69ti (Black/Red/Yellow) rolling resto track car

'73tii (Fjord....RIP)

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Lots going on there.  Gut tells me ignition but I'd suggest a complete reset.  

Edited by lilmo

1973 tii, agave, since 1992

1973 tii block 2763759

1967 Mustang GT fastback, since 1986

1999 Toyota 4Runner, 5 speed, ELocker, Supercharged

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Thanks everyone. I'll enjoy this weekend sans car and think about things...and try to delve into it next week if I have some time.

 

I am wondering if some debris got past the fuel filter and clogged an injector...that would explain the horrible misfire

 

and I still don't know why the CSV squirts fuel when the ignition is on (not cranking) and it is unplugged. Seems like it shouldn't squirt unless you are cranking the engine, I thought...

1973 2002Tii Agave "Gerta"-----1972 2002Tii Verona project-----------2003 Porsche 911 X51-------2016 FIAT Abarth--------2003 Porsche Boxster----------2005 Honda Element

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The joys of the tii.  My engine has run like that. What's the problem?

 

Just kidding.

 

If I'm believing the video, it seems to be wired correctly. I don't think it would run like that with crossed wires.  If it revs ok, you have spark to all pistons.

 

Poor hot starts (for me) have commonly been timing.  Analog fix: reset timing to proper setting and confirm dwell at 59-63 degrees. Lesser degrees means less spark which means more unburnt fuel which means flooding, pre-ignition, pooling, and being an allround pain in the butt.

 

Makes me wonder if your E-Ignition is suspect.  I'd check items below before assuming the e-ignition is a problem.

 

RESET your warm-up regulator.  Sounds like you may have adjusted it without properly understanding it.

 

THOROUGHLY check ALL air hoses connected to W/U regulator, throttle body, air collector, and the air cleaner.  Any loose, disconnected, or torn hose will INSTANTLY change the running condition of your engine.  It's meant to be a closed system.  If it was running well recently and started to act up, could be air getting into the system.  Even that little hose between the throttle body and the head return air hose can change the idle instantly if detached.

 

I would use a pair of cloth-covered visegrips to clamp CSV fuel line closed while testing everything else. If I was happy (er) with the engine running, then I'd release the visegrips and see what issues arise with the CSV inline.

73 Inka Tii #2762958

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So I got an air compressor, and started on blowing out the return line. I first used my mouth, it seemed blocked.

 

I then used the AC on low, and immediately it cleared out and started draining into a small bottle I had set up. I didn't see any debris in the bottle, but I did see what appeared to be water or some other liquid mixing with the gas. A decent amount came out--1/4 of a small water bottle.

 

I then put everything back together, and the car started right up, immediately. It then ran like crap, just like it has been. Like on three cylinders.

And gas is still pooling in the intake hose.

 

I tried to adjust the warmup regulator, but even with the instructions I can't figure it out.

 

Here is a pic of it--see anything odd?

 

Checked ignition and wires and plugs again, plugs don't look bad. They only have 200 miles on them, but they don't look fouled. Distributor cap is new.

 

I even unplugged the CSV relay timer box completely.

 

Today if I have it in me, I will get some vise grips and clamp the CSV hose, and see if it runs correctly. If it does, then honestly I am not even sure what to do.

 

I have never had a car that has annoyed me as much, honestly.

post-42945-0-96698800-1381852382_thumb.j

Edited by achman

1973 2002Tii Agave "Gerta"-----1972 2002Tii Verona project-----------2003 Porsche 911 X51-------2016 FIAT Abarth--------2003 Porsche Boxster----------2005 Honda Element

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