engine and drivetrain My Alignment Specs Post I.e. "street Performance" Suspension

[gliding_serpent2]

After much research for tire and suspension options, I chose the suspension setup outlined on the Ireland Engineering site titled street-performance, for my Tii suspension rebuild.  In short...

- HD springs

- IE stage 1 springs

- poly bushings

- IE front fixed camber plates

- IE front and rear adjustable swaybars

- stock fenders without any rolling. 

 

This produced a very raked nose-down look with the front aluminum spacers out and the rear 2-dot spring seats.  The front was about 1.5inches lower than the rear (rocker panel to ground).  Note: fixed front camber plates not yet installed.

 

 

1/4 spacers were added in the front with fixed camber plates, and the two dot spring seats in the rear were shaved.  Now the back is about 1 inch higher than the front (advised by Jeff Mulcahey). 

 

Here are the final alignment specs (no driver).  Sadly, I do not have any numbers prior to the new suspension. 

 

FRONT

Camber: L -0.58   R - 0.49

Caster:   L +2.38  R +2.34

Toe:        L +0.12  R +0.10

 

REAR

Camber: L -0.23   R - 0.17

Toe:        L +0.00  R +0.08

 

I pared this suspension with Falken Azenis 195/60/14 RT615K's and BMW e30 6x14 et35 "bottlecap" wheels without spacers.  Quite comfortable (but firmer than stock for sure) and no rubbing on street driving aside from a bit on the drivers side inner (engine side) fender when turning left FULL lock. 

 

On the track (sway bars set to firm) this combo stuck like glue with tire pressures 40psi front and rear, hot.  Tire roll on the fronts was surprisingly minimal.  The car could get on three wheels in very hard cornering.  Brilliant!  Zero tire rubbing. 

 

Overall an incredible combination for any 2002 that I would highly advise if you want improved (yet still comfortable) street handling that also performs admirably on the track without rubbing.  A great setup for both "form and function". 

Edited September 9, 2013 by gliding_serpent

[austinmf]

Nice! Thanks for sharing. Interested in the camber plates. Are they needed if I don't go stage 1 springs? I have Korman road sports and my car sits high on 13" et18. Same specs as you but no camber plates and Korman springs

[gliding_serpent2]

Nice! Thanks for sharing. Interested in the camber plates. Are they needed if I don't go stage 1 springs? I have Korman road sports and my car sits high on 13" et18. Same specs as you but no camber plates and Korman springs

I don;t think I can really answer your question as I do not know those springs, or their age, which plays a big factor.  I would also need to know your rim width and tire choice... and even then I would just be giving you an educated guess. 

 

IE stage 1 springs are said to drop your ride height by 1-1.5 inches.  Spirited road driving produced no rubbing pre-camber plates for my car.  Your would probably be fine as long as your springs are not softer, and do not lower the car more than the IE stage 1 springs.  The track is a different beast however, but unless you are out to die on public roads, worrying about what works for the track should not be an issue.  Build the car for your use.  I overbuilt mine knowing I wanted to do some track time... and I just want everything over-engineered... "because this is my baby."

 

Do you NEED plates?  It depends, but will not hurt clearance.  Should you get them?  YES!!

 

Clearance aside, I think fixed front camber plates are a no-brainer.  We are only talking 5/8's a degree extra negative camber so tire wear should not be hurt.  IF nothing else, these plates help dial out positive (bad) camber gained when lowering the car, thus keeping you closer to stock camber. 

 

These are not power cars... they are momentum cars.  Do everything you can to keep the momentum in turns.  Negative camber is good, and fixed plates allow you to keep the original suspension and spirit of the car while adding turning performance.  Do yourself a favor, get some modern 14 rubber (Falken and Dunlop still have great high performance summer tires in this size).  Why 14?  Because you still have more sidewall for road comfort than 15's, and because thicker sidewall tires will be less camber sensitive than 15's.  Not once did my Falkens roll over beyond the suggested limit marker on the tire.  Bottlecaps are cheap.  I got 4 for 100$.  Then get ready to corner as fast as any modern sports car.    The limit becomes the driver.   

[M3M3M3]

if you didn't roll 14's past the arrow tread marker with 0.5deg camber and only 40psi hot in a street tire...you were not pushing the car very hard......

[jgerock]

I'd be interested to see how well your car and mine do at the same track.  I ran 38 psi tire pressure (cold) in my tii and the std. brake fluid was the limitation at the last PDX.  I'd bet it would be fun with another tii.

 

A tad close to zero toe in in the front using tape measures (maybe 1/8" toe in)

No alignment ever done (actual camber and caster checks on an alignment machine).

Edited September 12, 2013 by jgerock

[M3M3M3]

"no alignment ever done"

 

hey...we did the alignment to get it to zero toe!  

 

you mean it has not been on a rack to measure camber and caster.  i do have the digital camber gauge until this weekend if you want to check that.

 

note that your 38psi cold would be 44+psi hot.  big difference in tire stiffness compared to 40psi hot.

[gliding_serpent2]

if you didn't roll 14's past the arrow tread marker with 0.5deg camber and only 40psi hot in a street tire...you were not pushing the car very hard......

Ha, i see what you are doing. I argue the 615k is an autocross tire. I am not yet sure what is me (most of it) and what is the car, but although this was my first time with the tii on the track, it was not my 1st time (only 4th actually). "Back in the day" i would have plenty of rollover to do you proud on my heavier e90... But i try to practice more mechanical sympathy now (plus i have two kids and i was diagnosing brake Issues the day before... So i had plenty of race car driver excuses). On our tight track, overheating tires quickly backfires. I was completely humbled when i had (probably the most experienced local driver, had a 2002 in the past) do a 4-5 few laps with me in the passengers seat. Smooth, no tire rollover... Blistering effortless speed. He only used the brakes in 3 of 11 corners. I broke in 6 or 7. I just don't yet have the skill... Or balls... Not by a long shot. I am good enough to realize that however.

That being said, after an e90 it was a challenge to retrain my brain to modulate where i used to brake, and accelerate where i used to modulate. I was faster then my 328 i am sure, but i still have far more corner speed to gain, and far more track to use.

I would love to be your student however. Would you like to visit? If you are a bmw instructor it would likely be easy to make happen...

Edited September 10, 2013 by gliding_serpent

[gliding_serpent2]

I'd be interested to see how well your car and mine do at the same track. I ran 38 psi tire pressure (cold) in my tii and the std. brake fluid was the limitation at the last PDX. I'd bet it would be fun with another tii.

H&R springs

Bilstein HD shocks

IE fixed camber plates

ST 22/19 sway bars

Stock rubber bushings

5 speed OD tranny with E21 rear mount.

Stock engine mounts

3.91 E21 LSD

14 x 6 wheels with 195-60-14 tires (kind of old)

A tad close to zero toe in in the front using tape measures (maybe 1/8" toe in)

No alignment ever done.

I have no lsd and ran zero toe. Stock 4 speed. I also dialled my bars for safer understeer. Pretty sure it saved me once.

I suspect the comparison would be more about the upgrades between the ears than the cars... But it would be a blast to run a bunch of 02's.

[gliding_serpent2]

Guys, i would love to talk tire pressures. I shoe polish my tires to gauge required pressures, but would love input.

[jgerock]

Guys, i would love to talk tire pressures. I shoe polish my tires to gauge required pressures, but would love input.

I recently ran across an interesting Roundel that had an article about tire pressures for Autocross events. Will try to find it again and post here..

"no alignment ever done"

 

hey...we did the alignment to get it to zero toe!  

 

you mean it has not been on a rack to measure camber and caster.  i do have the digital camber gauge until this weekend if you want to check that.

 

note that your 38psi cold would be 44+psi hot.  big difference in tire stiffness compared to 40psi hot.

Sorry Marshall - I edited my post.

[gliding_serpent2]

I recently ran across an interesting Roundel that had an article about tire pressures for Autocross events. Will try to find it again and post here..

Sorry Marshall - I edited my post.

I got my shoe polishing technique from an old roundel article posted online. It was a great anylitical approach.

I know many factors of the car, driver, track, and tire factor in... But one toyo piece of advice for r888's was that for a 2200lbs car, 28 psi was a good cold starting point for a final hot temp of 32-34psi. I assume the stiffer sidewalls allow it to happen. I have a set to play with for autocross this fall.

I tend to find my shoe polishing tends to get me to 38-40 psi hot on warm summer days using high performance summer tires (pilot super sports on 328, falken 615k's on tii). Cold is around 32-34 front, 34-36ish rear.

I tend to start my track days at 34-36 cold, and as the day heats up, and hot tire pressures increase, i let air out. When rollover is occasionally close to, but not quite at the wear line, i figure i am at the right pressure.

[mikebontoft]

hey does it have a slight pull to the right with those specs?

[gliding_serpent2]

hey does it have a slight pull to the right with those specs?

No. Remember, things change a bit with the driver in the car, or depending on gas levels.

Pulling depends more on the camber of the road than anything i find. That being said, a lot of german cars were designed to pull slightly right by default. Safer if you fall asleep at the wheel or start texting your BFF.

[mikebontoft]

yeah you've got a good point there. passenger weight plays a much larger role in such a light car

[M3M3M3]

I know many factors of the car, driver, track, and tire factor in... But one toyo piece of advice for r888's was that for a 2200lbs car, 28 psi was a good cold starting point for a final hot temp of 32-34psi. I assume the stiffer sidewalls allow it to happen. I have a set to play with for autocross this fall.

I tend to find my shoe polishing tends to get me to 38-40 psi hot on warm summer days using high performance summer tires (pilot super sports on 328, falken 615k's on tii). Cold is around 32-34 front, 34-36ish rear.

I tend to start my track days at 34-36 cold, and as the day heats up, and hot tire pressures increase, i let air out. When rollover is occasionally close to, but not quite at the wear line, i figure i am at the right pressure.

myself and many other racers have found the recommended pressures for R888's is WAY off on the low side.  38-42 hot is where you should be. i ran 39 hot on the one set i had before i swore never to use those crap tires again.

 

definition of HOT pressures is rolling off a full tilt lap into pits and measuring immediately right there in pits.  no cool down lap, no driving back to paddock spot.  you must measure as close as possible to the conditions on track.  you can lose several psi on cool down lap and a few more going back to paddock.

 

once you have hot pressures where you want them, measure the same tires again the next morning to see where they cool down to.  record that and the air temp.  next time you head to track on a day with about the same forecast, set them at the cold temp you wrote down.  note - the pressure will probably be different on each corner of the car depending on what track you are on.  make sure you set the pressure for the corner of the car the tire is going on.

 

usually street performance tires will need higher hot pressures than R-comps.

 

ultimately you need to set pressures with data from a probe type pyrometer.

 

That being said, a lot of german cars were designed to pull slightly right by default. Safer if you fall asleep at the wheel or start texting your BFF.

that is interesting.  i have never heard that one, nor found that any of my several dozen german cars in the last 40 years have pulled too the right.....  pretty sure it is not correct.