OT: Why pick on China?

[bnam]

I don't get the small mindedness sometimes displayed when it comes to products from China.

There are a lot of crappy products and sellers (companies and individuals) from USA, Germany, or pretty much any place on this planet. I'm sure most of us have experienced this.

If you believe Bosch sells you a substandard product that was made in China -- why blame China -- blame Bosch -- for not extending their "German" quality to all parts they offer.

I've experienced good German Bosch parts as well as horrible German Bosch parts. I've seen good and bad Bosch India parts. When the parts are bad, I blame Bosch's quality control or business decisions - not where it's made.

If the availability of cheap Chinese goods has threatened local manufacturers, why blame the Chinese manufacturer for offering a product that the end customers (you and I included) are willing to buy -- they're just competing in a free market.

I for one am extremely grateful for the greater choice offered by the increased competition from around the globe. And my hats off to the local players who have stepped up their game and thrived.

Just my $0.02

Byas

EDIT: This should have been in the OT forum - my bad! I don't know how to move it now.

[Guest gliding_serpent]

The Chinese are very a very smart people, and they do good work. You are right to blame the company (say Bosch) and not China for an inferior product. Someone who deals with Chinese manufacturing basically put it this way... if you want China to build something for you, they can build it as well, or as cheaply as you want. You name the price point and desired profit margin, and they build the best they can given those perimeters. Low price/high profit = crap parts. Don't blame the Chinese for that, blame they guy that got cheap/greedy.

My problem with China is of no fault of it's people, but rather their government. In a world market, there is just no way to compete with a country long term that's government forces low wages through Communism. Thus, in time you just can't compete with them for manufacturing because as a (capitalist) country gets richer, employees demand a bigger cut of the pie. This issue is one reason why the US went on a Communism man hunt back in the day... they knew Communism was the one fly in the capitalism based world economy ointment. In the 80's the US and others began to take advantage of cheap Chinese manufacturing... and now they can't ween themselves off of it, they have lost most internal manufacturing (even cars depend heavily on Chinese parts), and China owns most of the US debt (also called the "silent invasion"). China is the new economic super power and will soon overtake the US as the overall dominant country in the world. Good news is that they will continue to play nice with the rest of the world because they don't want to compromise their exports.

[Rocan]

I worked in a bicycle shop for a few years and got to witness the outsourcing of Cannondale (a proudly American made brand for years) to China. Towards the end, they only made the high end frames in the US and our old rep told us that they were actually LOSING money on every frame sold, despite the extremely high prices (seriously... you could buy an 02 or two for the price of one frame) . I have compared the equivalent frame made in china and in the us, and have not found any differences whatsoever. It's all about the management and training, not about the workers.

So as said before, pick on the company, not the country.

Also, isn't this off topic?

[roadhog0]

I worked in a bicycle shop for a few years and got to witness the outsourcing of Cannondale (a proudly American made brand for years) to China. Towards the end, they only made the high end frames in the US and our old rep told us that they were actually LOSING money on every frame sold, despite the extremely high prices (seriously... you could buy an 02 or two for the price of one frame) . I have compared the equivalent frame made in china and in the us, and have not found any differences whatsoever. It's all about the management and training, not about the workers.

So as said before, pick on the company, not the country.

Also, isn't this off topic?

Well I didnt know that. Glad I got a little older USA Cannondale then! My Raleigh frame says "Designed in the USA," on it and on the head tube says made in China. I notice no difference between that and a US frame.

[justinevert]

I would agree with Glide and blame not the companies for their government.

Having worked in IP (patent, trademarks etc) and manufacturing I have heard and seen all the horror stories about their MO. From my perspective I have no faith in their promises of abiding with the rest of the world economies. If they can write off 30 million of their own at a drop of a hat,what gives anyone faith they care for anyone but themselves? More importantly why should I encourage such actions by providing them more business. Chinese R&D stands for "Ripoff and Duplicate" for a very good reason.

As for the items I had bought before finding out their source of manufacture, I can still smell the sweat from their slave labor. Still can't get the smell washed off.

My .02 cents

[2002Monster]

If the label says made in china....then it stays on the shelf and we find something else... especially when it comes to food and stuff for the kids.

Id rather spend the extra money and buy something made in the US or Canada.

Ive noticed the trend lately that products previously made in China are now being made in fhe US and I applaud the companies for bringing the manufacturing back to this country.

Besides....why all the hoopla about China on the board lately anyways?

Btw......its been my New Years resolution every year to not buy anything made in China no matter how badly I need it....and if I cant find something made here, then I do without

Fuck China!!!!

[Allenr56]

China has also violated several provisions of fair trade. Not to mention that they do not allow their currency to fluctuate. They need to be stopped, and it will only be done by boycotts.

I actually had a customer complaint from a customer in China that accused us of selling them a product made with knock off Chinese fasteners. The complaint actually said that they purchased an American product and expected it to not be made with Chinese components.

Just ask any US company that has had to go to court over a failed Chinese knock off of their part. Wasted hundreds of thousands fighting a false claim only to have the Chinese government do nothing to stop the manufacture of fake goods. Ask them why people bash China.

To the original poster, I'm glad you started this thread, many people feel as you do. I encourage you to research Chinese trade practices, copyright infringements, environmental and humanitarian violations, and see if you still feel like it is a good option to have these low priced goods.

[wegweiser]

I try to keep my money local when reasonably practical. Even if it means paying a little bit more. That goes for independently owned hardware stores, buying US made hand tools, and driving to the local storefront instead of shopping on-line.

I like knowing that some grunt, just like me - is earning their salary making the tools I use to earn mine. The only thing that will fix our economy is ourselves. Next time you wave a polyester American flag - check the country or origin.

[ShakeyC]

It wont be forever that all i can say, already those big of front street sweat factories are struggling to find low paid workers from the countryside, many now already become empty as manufacturing started to move back to products previous origins.

There is several reasons for this Chinese demanding better wages and conditions as whole people become more affluent. Here in UK for manufacturing clothing and electronics is nearly the same cost to make a product here or import from China with same employment problem at same margins. Visiting Bosch electronics factories few years ago in Hungary and Czech products are made to cost same as anywhere else. Example is new gen super high pressure diesel pumps they designed to fail within specified lifespan or before these 2000psi+ bombs which are infact designed by and manufactured by American company for many premium cars brands.

The one thing i would say to everyone is avoid cheap bearings they even have SKF Febi Bilstien laser etched as per original which are so dangerous you can flex the whole thing between your thumb and forefinger.

http://www.skf.com/files/891104.pdf

http://www.stopfakebearings.com

many more real examples on the web, you don't get better product for paying more you just get conned harder. Use your common sense judge the product NOT the packaging.

[Chamoix]

I managed a joint venture fish processing operation in Shanghai China a few years back. Profitability hinged on a minimum yield of 20% and they kept it right there even though 25-30% was easily attainable. Meanwhile, they were selling the cardboard boxes and plastic strapping my raw materials came in and while we were processing pollock, every little restaurant in town had pollock on the menu. When we switched to cod, every little restaurant had cod on the menu. They set up a mirror image operation on the other side of town, and every time we had an employee trained up half decent, they would transfer them to "their" operation. They were corrupt, immoral, and unethical by Western standards the entire time. I eventually convinced my boss to pay off a local official (the JV was with the Chinese government) and closed the operation down.

[path88]

When China's time at bat is over, there's plenty of other locations in the world waiting on deck willing and able to exploit their population for profit.

It's not the nation(s) at fault, really, it's bizness.

Keep in mind that the U.S. was the global industrial boom-town a hundred years ago. Granted, we were huge innovators of industry tech, not just thieves of ideas with no respect for copyright, but we certainly weren't above exploitation when required.

I see a wild card in the future though. The whole 3D printer/stereolithography thing, depending how robust that tech becomes, could really shift the markets of specialty manufacturing.

Could I design a special intake manifold or customized throttle linkage for my 2002 on my home PC, email the digital model to a neighborhood printer, and then pick it up later in the day? We'll see.

I do believe we'll see some of the more modest bits and ends of old cars start to become more readily available this decade via regular-joe enthusiasts that have access to 3d printers. Need a latch hinge for your broken sun visor? No problem, I have that CAD on my hard drive. I can print that out tonight and mail it to you by the end of the day!

[kbken62]

I agree with regards to where the blame for quality decisions should be placed. However, there are numerous, and I mean numerous knock-offs of famous brands being sold. The brand takes the hit, not the seller of the counterfeit goods.

Bosch fuel pumps, filters, distributor caps, etc, are all knocked off in China and sold on ebay all day long. Several years ago, you could buy Cisco Router components known as WIC Cards on ebay for $99bucks. Cisco real WIC Cards sold for nearly $600 at the time.

I have a friend who starved his motor of fuel and messed it up pretty bad in a race due to a knock off fuel pump.

Let's know talk about non-auto stuff too... purses, watches, clothes, shoes, etc....

[TobyB]

When China's time at bat is over, there's plenty of other locations in the world waiting on deck willing and able to exploit their population for profit.

It's not the nation(s) at fault, really, it's bizness.

Yup. India's ready to go.

And let's not forget trashing the planet while we're at it. Everyone in the US

is on their high horse about "Green This" and "Green That" and yet buys

stuff from a country that dumps their leftover paint in the river.

Just like we did 100 years ago.

And what about US companies that coudn't WAIT to lay off their fairly- paid

workers, outsource, and reap billions for their executables? The sharegropers?

Oh, boy is this ever off topic....

t

[ray_]

I understand more doctors prefer Camels. ;-)

Don't get me started on western corruption. Read the history section here for one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead

I've worked in int'l biz for 30 years, 10 in Tianjin. Western corruption is merely a different flavor.

Cheers,

. They were corrupt, immoral, and unethical by Western standards the entire time. I eventually convinced my boss to pay off a local official (the JV was with the Chinese government) and closed the operation down.

[M3M3M3]

this, along with nicks original thread last week, belongs in the politics section, or at least off topic.

come on folks, drop this here and get back on the 02 topic.