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value question: S14 vs stock tii engine


Guest Anonymous

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Guest Anonymous

[sorry for double post - I originally posted in the Cars forum and meant to post here. Deleting now.]

Hi All -

I've been lurking here for a month or so because I'm shopping for a 2002.

I'm very intrigued by the S14 conversion M2 but I wonder how this conversion truly impacts the value of a car?

Consider this comparison:

A well sorted tii driver that is mechanically sound and cosmetically in good to very good condition. This would be a numbers matching car with reasonable miles.

Now consider that same exact car with a S14 conversion.

Is the M2 really worth more? If so, what is your opinion of how much more?

Performing a search I found this:

"...At resale, the overall condition of the car, particularly the body, paint, and exterior is far more important than whether the car has a lightly-prepared engine. The exception is if the car has an S14 engine from an E30 M3. "

These conversions are expensive but as with any project like this you can never expect to get the money out of it that you invest.

My big question is how much do you all think this would add in value??

I know - a car is worth what someone is willing to pay. But you all have been watching the 2002 market longer than I have and I'm just looking for your educated opinion / guess.

Thanks very much for you thoughts -

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It depends on what you want to do...if you want to own/build a car for your own enjoyment, do whatcha want--from stock to wild.

If you're gonna sell it in a few years, remember there is always a good (or better) market for a stock (original or refurbished/restored) 2002--and that market is more reliable than for modified cars. And modifying a really nice, numbers matching tii would kinda be a shame...

Don't ever count on making money on a car--with very few exceptions, you won't, especially on a modified one or a high buck restoration.

Bottom line: make a decision based on what you want to do, both now and in the future.

IMHO

mike

'69 Nevada sunroof-Wolfgang-bought new
'73 Sahara sunroof-Ludwig-since '78
'91 Brillantrot 318is sunroof-Georg Friederich 
Fiat Topolini (Benito & Luigi), Renault 4CVs (Anatole, Lucky Pierre, Brigette) & Kermit, the Bugeye Sprite

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Pros and cons:

Pros of stock tii motor:

1. Relatively cheap and easy to rebuild the motor, with the exception of the Kfish. Even with the Kfish rebuild cost approaching $2k, it's significantly cheaper to refresh an entire tii motor and Kfish than it is to refresh an S14.

2. Was designed for the car, and doesn't require non-OEM parts. Most parts are still available at fair prices relative to the S14.

3. Has "cache" among purists.

Cons of stock tii motor:

1. Tuning a tii can be a real hassle.

2. It's 40-year-old (some might say 50-plus-year-old) technology.

3. Some Kfish parts are NLA, difficult to source, and/or expensive.

4. 135 hp vs. 200ish for S14.

Pros of S14:

1. Relatively modern technology, with a variety of tuning options, including ECU upgrades, ignition mapping, Alpha-N tuning, etc.

2. Lots of power (200ish hp vs 135 hp for tii.)

3. High revving.

4. Has "cache" among tuner crowd.

5. Once tuned, tends to stay tuned.

Cons of S14:

1. Reputation of builder/conversion lead is exceedingly important for assessing the value of the car. If the builder/conversion lead subsequently falls out of favor, the value of the car will go down, regardless of quality of the conversion.

2. S14 parts are jackass crazy expensive. A refresh can easily run $6-8k. You could probably buy 2 known good tii motors for that amount. You could probably get a sorted Alpina A4 setup for around that much.

3. Smaller market of interested buyers means longer resale timeline.

4. More modern technology requires a bit more know-how to tune.

5. If you're going with an S14, you're probably going to upgrade a lot more, including suspension, brakes, diff, etc. So your overall costs may be substantially more than just the motor.

Which is worth more? Depends on the buyer. Generally speaking, and all other things equal, a concourse quality, numbers matching tii will probably command the same market price as a similar S14. I suspect the S14 swapped car would do better as the quality of the remainder of the car goes down, due primarily to the resale value of the S14. From what I've seen over the past 3 1/2 years on this forum and others, an S14 that needs a refresh is worth about as much as a recently refreshed tii motor.

williamggruff

'76 2002 "Verona" / '12 Fiat 500 Sport "Latte" / '21 Toyota 4Runner TRD Off Road Prem “The Truck”

 

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Please oh please oh please don't make this choice on the basis of which one some set of people think will be worth more -- make it on the basis of what quickens your blood.

The new book The Best Of The Hack Mechanic available at https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0998950742, inscribed copies of all books available at www.robsiegel.com

1972 tii (Louie), 1973 2002 (Hampton), 1975 ti tribute (Bertha), 1972 Bavaria, 1973 3.0CSi, 1979 Euro 635CSi, 1999 Z3, 1999 M Coupe, 2003 530i sport, 1974 Lotus Europa Twin Cam Special (I know, I know...)

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Do what you want, but make sure you know what you are getting into before throwing money at any vehicle. I love my close-to-stock tii because I turn the key, it starts and runs without futzing with it - even with a stock ignition. The 130 HP tii rating doesn't seem like much, but wind up a tii and it will amaze you.

If possible, ride in/drive other folks cars to see what you like and can live with. A car with stock engine, improved suspension and better seats may be all you really need to satisfy your '02 wishes.

Jim Gerock

 

Riviera 69 2002 built 5/30/69 "Oscar"

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I would caution you when you are asking a question about resale value. As others have said, you will not likely be happy with the return. Better to buy a good mutual fund.

I have close to $30K in my S14 and if I sold it today, I'd probably be lucky to get $22K for it. Now I replaced every bushing and nearly every nut and bolt. Oh and I'm not nearly done!

Keep in mind that if you want to refresh a solid car, which is paint, new bushings, suspension refresh, driveline refresh, rubber, rechrome, etc, you are at 20K. That includes 100s of hours of you doing much of the work.

So, if you don't love doing this stuff, then the best deal is to buy someone elses that has already done it all and will likely lose $5K on their car.

Good luck though, these cars are some serious fun and the price just keeps going up. Maybe in 10 years I can sell my car for what I have into it now. But who wants to sell it. Just get another one and do it all over again....

74 2002 Restore/Upgrade Project - M2

08 Alpina B7

 

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I love JimG's tii. it is a wonderful car to ride in. smooth, fun, comfortable.

that said....drop the hammer in an s14 equiped 2002 in second gear and leave your foot down until the tach says 7500+. you will instantly forget how much you spent putting the engine in and will not care how much you sell it for. heck, you will probably never want to sell it. WAAAAHOOOO!

beware or you will end up with a car like mine. stupid fun on a track, but painful on the street. did i mention how much i like JimG's tii?

and based on grice's assessment of s14 swap value based on what shop put it in, i fear my car may not be worth much....but i could care less! ;-)

2xM3

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Guest Anonymous

Thank you all very much! Excellent feedback from an obviously well informed and passionate group.

Marshall - I've seen your build thread and your car is probably worth more than the next one simply because YOU were the one doing the work. Great stuff!

kbken62 - Your car sounds awesome. I have a question for you. What do you think you would be able to get for your car if it had a fresh original 2002 engine? All things (upgrades) equal, the only difference is the engine.

Thanks again guys. This is very helpful.

( I want to buy a 2002 even more now just because of this forum )

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I love JimG's tii. it is a wonderful car to ride in. smooth, fun, comfortable.

that said....drop the hammer in an s14 equiped 2002 in second gear and leave your foot down until the tach says 7500+. you will instantly forget how much you spent putting the engine in and will not care how much you sell it for. heck, you will probably never want to sell it. WAAAAHOOOO!

beware or you will end up with a car like mine. stupid fun on a track, but painful on the street. did i mention how much i like JimG's tii?

and based on grice's assessment of s14 swap value based on what shop put it in, i fear my car may not be worth much....but i could care less! ;-)

Thanks M. Both are fun at the AutoX sessions

DSC_1450.jpg

Jim Gerock

 

Riviera 69 2002 built 5/30/69 "Oscar"

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Tom, an FYI on Ken's car. It is so spotless, even underneath it is amazing. In fact on the way to Mid Americ we stopped at Skip's shop. Skip put Ken's car up on the rack to look at something. It was so clean underneath we all started taking pictures. His car is near flawless inside and out so the value of his car with an M10 is at the very high end. Put his S14 in a rust bucket and it will not even sell for what the motor is worth. So value is based on the total package..not just the motor in the package

I have about 15k in my 9k car and it is an M10

I think what youare getting at is this:

Say I have a pristine Tii worth 25k. I yank the M10 and stick in an S14..what is it worth now? Well it aint worth driving because you have not upgraged the suspension, cooling and electrical, wheels and tires etc etc.

It is not just a motor swap, it is an entire car modification to accept that power and be able to handle and stop.

I think someone on this board once said if you have to ask how much it costs to do an S14 swap then you probably should not be doing it

I'm not as dumb as I look

74 Verona

06 Audi A3

09 Mercedes C300

06 VW Passat

03 VW Conv Beetle

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Agree with all of the posts. You seem to be ultimately most concerned with what the final price someone would pay for your car - whether original or with S14 engine. There are so many variables there are too many to list.

Forget the "value" and "selling price" - these cars as stated are hardly ever investments. Buy some land somewhere if you want ROI. Right now buy a decent $5-7K car and enjoy the heck out of it.

At the end of the day, whether 1972 or 1976, Tii or Turbo or Stock - the best odds on highest resale is as stated, the car that is most like how it left the factory will likely get the highest dollar the fastest. They are getting harder and harder to find...

My two cents!

~Jason

1973 2002tii (2764167), Baikal, Rebuild blog here!

In the past: Verona H&B 1973 2002tii (2762913); Malaga 1975 2002; White 1975 2002

--> Blog: Repro tii cold start relay;   + --> Need an Alpina A4 tuning guide? PM me!

 

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Leave it stock.....When I want to go stupid fast I get into my 2002 M Roadster. The S54 is reasonable now..you could have a nice Tii and a "M" with all the "M" stuff, brakes, suspension,etc, and enjoy the full expense experience of owning one. ;)

Earl

74 02Lux

02 M Roadster

72 Volvo 1800ES

74 02Lux

15 M235i

72 Volvo 1800ES

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

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Guest Anonymous

Which is worth more? Depends on the buyer. Generally speaking, and all other things equal, a concourse quality, numbers matching tii will probably command the same market price as a similar S14. I suspect the S14 swapped car would do better as the quality of the remainder of the car goes down, due primarily to the resale value of the S14. From what I've seen over the past 3 1/2 years on this forum and others, an S14 that needs a refresh is worth about as much as a recently refreshed tii motor.

Here's the answer I was looking for. This is the "all things equal" question I was getting at and is more-or-less what I suspected. Thanks very much William!

Thank you all for chiming in - this was great bit of information!

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